Jordan Emanuel on Celibacy, Power, and Smarter Modern Dating
Celibacy, confidence, and calling out modern dating myths
I just sat down with Jordan Emanuel.
Playboy Playmate turned TV personality sharing hard‑won lessons on sex, power, and growth.
In this episode you’ll learn
An 18‑month celibacy sprint that rewired her self‑respect and dating radar
• Simple test to spot emotionally unavailable partners before the first date
• How embracing femininity becomes a negotiation edge at work and in love
We dive into the details later in the conversation.
Timestamps
00:00 Intro
05:09 Girlhood vs Womanhood reframe
10:29 Celibacy’s impact on identity & focus
19:41 Red‑flag checklist for situationships
32:55 Real‑life harassment stories and boundaries
46:07 Masculinity, respect, and partnership roles
57:55 Small kindnesses that change everything
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Here’s the full transcript:
Speaker 1 (00:00.504)
Jordan and Manuel, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you!
I want to get our exploration of celibacy, sex, dating in 2025, started with a bit of a understanding of you. Now, previously you mentioned that there was a lot of early sexualization of yourself. Yes. Being catcalled at 11.
Yes. wow. did. Well, OK, come on, research.
Shaping the way you view the world. So how did that and those kind of experiences shape your body image and boundaries later on?
Speaker 2 (00:44.11)
My God, I think, ironically, I had two parents who were both very open minded, but also didn’t necessarily, more so my mom, who didn’t know how to prepare themselves to prepare me for certain things. And I don’t think that my mom knew how to comfortably have a conversation with me about girlhood and then womanhood.
And unfortunately she passed when I was 17 before we could really have that conversation. And so when I developed, you know, I had full boobs, but like I looked a lot older than I was. And I remember as we started going to like bat mitzvahs and bar mitzvahs, like the dresses I wanted to wear weren’t more revealing, but they ended up being more revealing because of my body type.
And I didn’t have an understanding of why my mom was like, you can’t wear that, you can’t wear that. Or she would be like, her famous thing was like, you look like a hoochie, you look like a hoochie. When really it was like, I didn’t, my body was just more developed than the average 11, 12, 13 year old. And then I think later on, as kind of everybody else caught up to that,
I just think I had a greater awareness of sex, not necessarily partaking in it, but just of what my aesthetic meant in terms of sexuality, sex appeal and things like that. I think in a different way than the normal 14, 15 year old.
Yeah, okay. So with that in mind, I’m curious about that conversation that you wish you would have had with your mom. Like what would that conversation have actually sounded like if you could have had it?
Speaker 2 (02:43.555)
There’s a lot of things I would have loved to know.
What do you do differently with your daughter one day? Assuming you have a daughter.
You know, I’m going to teach her that there is power in femininity. I’m going to teach her what that means. I am going to teach her about using your brains, using your intellect, using social construct, and frankly, using your looks to get where you need to be in life because they’re going to be governed for you anyway. So you need to have some level of autonomy on your own code.
And I would definitely want to prepare her for that. And I would also want to instill confidence in those things.
I mean, I say it to all of my female friends and girls that I’m dating. It’s like a girl that understands how to harness and use her sexual power is really scary. Not in a way that’s slutty or anything, but there’s a certain energy that comes from that. it’s women that know how to harness that are like really, really powerful.
Speaker 2 (03:55.788)
Well, and it’s the reason why people wanted us to be so bottled up.
Yeah, it’s a fear of... Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. What did you mean by girlhood versus womanhood before? Are they two different things? Like, what are you actually saying?
World domination via women. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:10.862)
Yeah, I think, and this is hard to explain without saying it, like without bringing up a child. I’m gonna say it objectively. When you’re looking at, let’s say, Britney Spears, when she was coming into Mickey Mouse Club, when she was first here, Christina Milena, mean, Christina Milena, Christina Aguilera, all of them, when we see them as teeny boppers or even Zendaya, they are children.
Right? That they’re girls. We now can see them moving differently. Their bodies moved differently. The way they were dancing moved differently. The way they spoke was differently. They were coming into womanhood. Those are two different levels of being a cis woman. And one plays into the other for sure. But there’s a difference once we hit.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:04.928)
a certain point. And I don’t know that that’s necessarily when we lose our virginity or whatever it is, but there is a point between being a teenager, being a little girl, pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre- Pre-pre- Pre-
lobe.
Speaker 2 (05:30.346)
No, I’m not. Like looking back at 33 to 25, I’m like, I was still so young and so impressionable. I don’t know that I reached that full. I don’t think I’ve fully reached it yet. But not nearly as woman as I am now, for sure.
Yeah. What’s the difference? What are the actual key components that you’re trying to reach now?
I think it’s that power we were talking about before. didn’t realize it was there. I mean, I had a little inkling, but I didn’t realize how to wield it. I didn’t know what to do with it. I didn’t know how far it would get me.
So how do you wield it?
That’s for me to know. I think it’s confidence. It’s confidence and it’s the knowing and the faith of what I want to happen will happen for me and trusting that and not selling for anything less out of fear that it won’t happen. And I think that’s what happens with a lot of women is that we co-sign a lot of bullshit behavior from men. I’m talking about obviously heterosexual relationships, cause that’s what I am.
Speaker 2 (06:41.438)
in usually. Always, And we tolerate a lot out of a fear of being alone or thinking that the problem is us or that we need to stick in it for whatever reason it is and we don’t.
Usually.
Speaker 1 (06:59.438)
Okay, so what’s the alternative?
Peace? Peace? Because why are we over here raising people’s sons? I saw something recently that was like, it was a man, was somebody’s TikTok and he was like, my girlfriend, like I love when she gets in like baby mode, like when she gets like, I’m taking care of her and like her brain shuts off and she gets to like, be like, la la la. And she’s taking care of her. Right? But the alternative is,
It’s only thing that happens.
Speaker 2 (07:32.77)
then the man is the baby. And now you’ve become his mother instead of his partner.
Yeah, OK.
Because somebody in the relationship has to be dodo brained. So why would it be the man? I just, to me, it could never be the man.
Is there not space for the nurturing feminine energy in a relationship?
Yeah, but I don’t consider that nurturing. I consider that who’s leading.
Speaker 1 (08:04.558)
What are the differences?
I think nurturing is okay, you’re having a bad day. I can run you a bath and give you a massage and take care of you and take care of your, and give you a safe space and a soft space to land and talk to me about, but I can’t carry the job for you either. You know what I mean? So I think there’s still space for me to be a partner in that I’m gonna take care of what you’re feeling. But if you never get up and go to work again and now I have to pay all the bills, we can’t do that either.
Yeah, Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. So I want to dig into the celibacy stuff a little bit more because I found that fascinating when I was doing my digging, I have. I got to that and I was like, this is interesting because I’ve been exploring this idea in my head for quite a while. two vices are sugar and beautiful women.
Okay, come on combo. Sweet as...
Yeah, literally. So, you know, I go through phases of figuring out where do I land with this and it’s an interesting topic to talk about. let’s start with the what set up that decision.
Speaker 2 (09:22.104)
So I found myself in a series of situationships and the last one I was in, just like an anonymous relationship, not boyfriend and girlfriend, but you’re doing everything boyfriend, girlfriend.
find a situation she has just so.
Speaker 1 (09:41.368)
What was the most out of pocket amount of time you’ve had in a situation ship?
Which one?
Speaker 2 (09:51.886)
Probably a year.
That’s a long time. At what point are you like, this isn’t, what is this?
Well, that’s what I mean. was 24, 25 and I hadn’t, I thought, okay, well, this is us being honest with each other and this is, I thought that was it. I that was good enough for me at the time. And it took maybe that situation was probably the start of it. I went through two more and I was done. Third time was the charm. And then I went into celibacy.
So what about the, what were the issues of situationships that were the problem for you?
I think it just forced me, think looking back now, it forced me to come to terms with the fact that I was purposely looking for emotionally unavailable men. Because for whatever reason that felt safe to me, because that meant that I didn’t have to show or display real vulnerability. That means I didn’t have to do the work that I needed to do. And I think, you know, when you lose your mom at 17, you
Speaker 2 (11:04.396)
you think that you’re not worthy, at least for me.
So how does that tie in exactly? How does something outside of your control?
It’s an illusion. It’s a false sense of control that I told myself that felt safe because in my mind I’m like, well, they’re going to leave anyway. At least now it’s like when it happens, it’s like, oh, I knew it was going to happen.
You’re already halfway out the door. So, you know, situationships are really prevalent around now. People are struggling to date. What about that framework of emotional and sexual connection?
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:44.992)
is working for people then. If we go down the mental health, like the unresolved trauma, lack of mental health support, if we go down that route of why you did that, what’s happening?
I think it’s tough because I don’t think anyone wants to be vulnerable. I think we come from a generation where a lot of our parents didn’t make it as couples. And I feel like they were kind of the first generation that really were evaluating, okay, this doesn’t make me happy. I’m not going to stick it out for the kids. I’m not going to be here till I do the day I die. Like I’m not doing that. And so I think that led to us having a fear of commitment, family and being stuck. I also think
We can’t ignore the financial restraints that we have now. Like we’re not buying houses at 30 anymore. Like can we even afford to be with anybody? I think that’s also realistic. And I think that people don’t.
Wait, wait, hold on, hold hold on. Let’s take a step back on that one. That makes no sense because the poorest of the poor have the most children.
Yeah, but that’s also education based and access based.
Speaker 1 (12:52.824)
But it’s a money situation that stops people from having lots of children.
But I thought we were talking about dating.
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I guess they go hand in hand.
Pregnant and dating are to me aren’t always the same.
Hopefully not.
Speaker 2 (13:09.292)
You know, to me, we’re talking about making a conscious decision to pursue people or to pursue a connection.
Why do you have to have money to do that?
Well, I mean in the sense that we’re barely surviving. So dating is a luxury that a lot of us don’t actually really have.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:29.166)
I’ve actually noticed that in America, like in being in New York, it’s a lot harder to meet somebody that you can build a deep connection with because the women here are either broke and chasing a guy that’s going to look after them 24-7 or working so much that they just have no mental space for anything else.
Yeah, but also...
The men are too. A lot of these men want to be bad bitches and want to be chased and want to be taken care of. Yeah, yeah they do.
Yeah.
I mean, I like being taken care of. I’m a bad bitch. No, like to take care. I have to take care of somebody who I feel I can build a deep connection with. Like if I feel like I’m ever being used at any moment, I’m like, get out of here. But there’s a vibe that like in the past, anyone that’s been just like genuinely there for me, all I want to do is provide. It’s like brings out something in me that I can’t.
Speaker 2 (14:07.054)
Exactly, thank you!
Speaker 1 (14:31.244)
turn off. But it only comes out with certain women that are approaching the relationship in a certain way. yeah, I guess it’s a
I think that’s fair. I mean, just as many women that are looking to be financially taken care of right off the bat, you guys are looking for really beautiful women who make you look good with her on her. To me, it’s a currency. They both are.
So if it’s always transactional, then how do you actually build a relationship?
I think relationships in general are transactions. Even with our friendships, why are we friends with these people? They make me laugh, they make me feel good, I feel myself. That’s a transaction.
Interesting. Okay, let’s put a pin in that and come back to it because that’s the second part of this episode I want get into. Okay, so multiple situations shifts, feeling unfulfilled, but you kind of were allowing these things to occur. Like you were contributing by accepting this as a part of your life because of fear of being abandoned. Got it. Why did celibacy become the solution?
Speaker 2 (15:43.212)
Because I realized that having sex without boundaries made me feel really bad. And I said, okay, let me take this out of the equation because it seemed to be the pinpoint of when the switch up would happen. And so the last situationship in particular, he and I had been close friends for a long time and he’d been, he had expressed interest like towards the end of like,
the hazy period and I was like so uninterested, so uninterested beyond like right before we started hooking up. And, yeah. So I’m like, okay, this person really appreciates me, really likes me for who I am. Why not? Why not? So.
that happened and I felt like, again, it was that false sense of control that I was like, well, this is on my terms. Like he’s the one who was after me. Like I’m the boss bitch right now. And things quickly shifted. We went to go visit his sister and he had basically been like, he had never seen my Playboy shoe, like didn’t really know about it until our mutual friend that had introduced us, like brought it up. We meet his sister and she was like,
yeah, you’re the playmate.
And I was like, you motherfucking liar in my mind.
Speaker 1 (17:15.566)
I wouldn’t know the difference between any of that. Like I don’t know what the difference is. What is the difference? Like what run me through that? Cause I just hear Playboy and I hear Playboy Mansion, Playmate and like nothing else.
Because the fact that you introduced the idea of me to your sister as what I’ve done rather than while I’m bringing this really good girl that I like and da da da, like the fact that you tried to pretend like you didn’t even know that I did it, but that’s how you sold me to your sister tells me what you think about me.
Speaker 2 (17:49.826)
And he tried to pretend that that wasn’t the case because he knows exactly how he felt about it. It made him feel good about himself that he was able to land.
How did you feel about it?
Speaker 1 (18:02.744)
Yeah, OK, I understand. Yeah. so how did, so let’s continue down that path of getting to celibacy.
So then, you know, we probably went back and forth for like another month or so and his ex-girlfriend or I, I to this day don’t even know if it was his girlfriend the whole time or if they broke up or whatever. They got back together and that was it. I was like, I’m, I’m good. He was like, well, I think we should still hook up. was like, I think you should die.
No. Fuck Marikill.
Um, and I think we actually still did speak for a little bit after that. And then something just clicked in my brain and I never spoke to him again. He will still hit me up to this day. Um, and I just will never engage ever again.
Day one to day 365. Let’s talk about what you started off feeling and experiencing and then how it went and what you ended on, why you ended it maybe.
Speaker 2 (19:04.856)
Well, knew I wanted to do it. Well, originally I was like, I’m not having sex until I’m in a committed relationship. Then I was like, I don’t want to set myself up for failure. So let me just set the bar for a year. So I started with the year. It ended up going for longer than that. I ended up going for like a year and a half. I don’t know. just, I guess I just felt like I knew myself more after the fact.
need to go for.
Speaker 1 (19:33.102)
Thank
I guess I realized that I was using sex as a tool, not to gain anything, to gain closeness to whoever it was that I was with. But it wasn’t necessarily because I’m empowered by this, I want to do that. Like, yeah, it was enjoyable, but it didn’t feel like to me how it was supposed to.
How’s it supposed to feel?
Like more exciting and more empowering.
Did you ever and have you ever ended up feeling that? Yeah. fact what shifted in the way you approached your intimate relationships pre and post.
Speaker 2 (20:09.782)
Yeah, after the pact.
Speaker 2 (20:19.086)
I think boundaries. If you weren’t showing up for me in the way that I needed to show up and not even just in a relationship, but just in general, like if we’re going out to dinner and you’re being rude or you’re not doing what you need to do during the dinner, you’re not interested in me in the dinner, you’re not engaging with me, you’re on your phone, why would I interact with you in that way? No. Whereas before I think I would let those things slide.
What were those boundaries?
Speaker 1 (20:47.224)
Did you ever communicate those concerns prior to or were you just like let it go and.
I would, but at that point it was like too late into the habit, the routine of it.
connected.
Speaker 1 (21:02.196)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay. So it just became a habitual thing more than like an opportunity to connect. So did you still date while you were celibate? Yeah. How did that go?
Right.
Yeah. It was a challenge.
I mean, you can, I mean, like nothing whatsoever. No. okay.
It was a challenge because I
Speaker 2 (21:26.286)
No, but my rule was blatantly penetration. Yes. Yeah, I really liked someone when I was celibate. And I look back on it now, because I actually just ran into him the other day. And I feel like it was the universe saving me from a really bad situation.
Interesting. Yeah. So, alright, this is cool. I like this. What was it about that relationship that would have been really bad that not having sex with him stopped?
You know, not having sex with him gave me the time to really get to know him.
How much time did you need before you realized he was not it?
Well, I had known him for years before and we kind of did our dance for like a year. Well, I guess it was longer than that. It was a little bit longer than a year and it took a while for me to clock his patterns and it didn’t change until after I filmed the first season of Summer House Martha’s Vineyard. And I think that my success
Speaker 2 (22:44.066)
made him feel inadequate. thus he started treating me very differently. And I didn’t clock that pattern until then, about a year in.
About a year in. Wow. And because you had not had sex with him, so you met him near the start of your celibacy, is that what
No, I’d met him prior actually. Okay. Yeah, I’d met him maybe two years beforehand.
Interesting. And not having sex with him allowed you to not be so emotionally invested in the relationship and allowed you to see it objectively? Yes.
Well, not even that, it’s that, it’s also, I get to see how you act without even having that part of me. So have you even earned that part? So I think that process was different because I hadn’t done that with anybody else. mean, obviously when I’m in a relationship it’s different, but I mean the situationships in particular.
Speaker 1 (23:40.024)
So do you think that the juxtaposition of like the Playboy stuff and then going celibate, did you feel like there was maybe you were trying to reset in some way or like what?
No, I don’t think one has to do with the other. I think that...
Okay, completely independent.
Because it’s quite contrast. Well, that seems the other thing we were going to talk about.
But is it?
Speaker 2 (24:05.192)
I think that’s so interesting that people think that self autonomy and sexuality and sensuality are something that can’t exist at the same time. I also think it’s interesting that women can’t do something that they feel good doing for them. And that means you’re accessible to everybody. Not really.
What do you mean by accessible to everybody? What does actually mean?
Like I feel like when I look at an Emily Radikowski or even a Kim K, they have been so openly comfortable with having their bodies out there, being sexy, whatever it is. But the second that they’re like, don’t talk to me like that or don’t da da da, it’s almost like people are insulted by that.
All because they feel good in their body and all because they want to do it, what they want to do and what they want to share on their platforms. Doesn’t give everybody the right to say whatever they want to say to them, to objectify them, to sexualize them without consent. Consent isn’t just a physical thing. It’s all about my space and how I curate it. I make the rules. And there’s a weird thing with that.
with women in society. mean, we’re police in general. Let’s be clear.
Speaker 1 (25:38.296)
We kind of know why we spoke, we touched on it before.
Right. And so I think there’s like a weird divide where you can’t be sexy and respected. And I just have never understood that.
Let’s talk about the thing that you wanted to touch on. Run me through, lean this in.
So the actress Sophia Vergara, she posted this slammin’ Instagram post and
So it’s her just
Speaker 2 (26:08.886)
sunbathing, she’s topless, like you just see like the back and then you see her like little bikini bottoms. Stunning. Somebody’s first comment that they put under it was quote, don’t sexualize me. No, they were just generally poking fun at the concept of women who have posted similar things and then said, don’t sexualize me.
And she’s said that in the
Speaker 1 (26:36.054)
So on this note then, from your perspective, what is the purpose of the post?
What do you think the purpose of the post-it?
I’ll get to my thoughts. But this is from your perspective in this space, working in this space, having the view of trying to find the balance between these two things.
I think that anybody who, and this is men, women, I think anybody that feels good, right? This is the whole point of social media. I think you’re gonna share that. If that’s you in a turtleneck and overalls, amazing. That should garner the same respect as somebody who’s sunbathing in their backyard, feeling themselves, ooh, the sun feels good. I love this picture of me. I’m gonna post it.
without it warranting dick pics and you want to, you look like you want to get pregnant. want to do like, this was actually the other day. Yeah. That doesn’t warrant that response. I’m posting this for my audience that I’m garnering on my page. If you don’t want to subscribe to that, if you don’t consent to seeing that, you can unfollow.
Speaker 1 (27:38.478)
Wait, my god
Speaker 1 (27:56.462)
It’s actually an interesting point. lot of people don’t, a lot of people have fed this stuff in the explore page. So it’s not even necessarily that they follow.
Mute, block, delete. Don’t show me things like this. There’s all sorts of resources as opposed to going out of your way than to comment about the very thing that you are so offended by.
Was that guy actually offended or was he just poking fun into a hot topic in society right now?
I think in his particular instance, he was poking fun. I’m just saying generally, those are the responses that I see or that I’ve received.
Yeah. Just quickly, though, I love doing this podcast. If it’s positively impacted you in some way and you would like to support us, please subscribe. By subscribing, it allows us to build a much bigger base of listeners, which results in better guests, better production and a better show overall. Alternatively, please take a look at the affiliate links of the products that I use and love in the comments below and consider purchasing using those links.
Speaker 1 (29:07.982)
They’ll give you a discount and they’ll also provide the podcast a small kickback. These are two very easy ways for you to support us as we continue to grow the podcast that we absolutely love doing. Thank you for your support and now back to the episode. So it seems like the core of the crux of the issue is the divide between what public and private life should be and what public and private like my, my
So you think being sexy is only for private life?
Not necessarily, I’m just curious about. don’t think anything, I’m just a silly Australian who asks questions.
Well, I’m just, you know, a silly American girl also asking questions about...
So a point that I, something I’m thinking about here is my, like I was in a relationship for a while ago and I was going to therapy at the time and we were talking about, like I’ve been, I’m a little bit flirty, right? Like text flirty.
Speaker 1 (30:16.846)
like very friendly and there’s a, there’s a fine line between it being appropriate and inappropriate in the context of being in a relationship as, like a, as like a core thing. Um, and you know, I’ll send it X-X’s to, to guys, to girls, to, and it’s just like my like way of communicating, which I’ve toned down a lot because Americans don’t do that at all. If they’re doing it, they want to fuck, but it’s a little bit flirty and like silly in Australia, but my,
The, my girlfriend at the time was really, really upset about certain of some of those interactions. And my therapist made a really good point where he was like, you just have different levels of exclusivity with your partner or your intimate zone that I’d never thought about that way. And there’s not necessarily anything wrong with either or it’s just a matter of understanding where they lie and whether
the potential lack of overlap is a deal breaker. So I think with this, it’s like, go for it, do whatever, like do whatever you want. there’s no free lunch. Like there’s a society that is somewhat conservative, right? In a lot of ways.
conservative. mean, let’s just be honest about it. You don’t have these women making $42 million, all these porn conventions, all these things.
Public versus private. This is the exact point I’m trying to make. They’re two very different worlds. So what you joking off to like.
Speaker 2 (31:52.014)
The public versus private to me doesn’t, don’t, don’t, that terminology is throwing me a little.
Making the $42 million is basically probably 95 % of dudes just alone in their room.
Yeah, but that still disqualifies the conservative label to me, regardless of its private, which like you’re under one umbrella to me that you’re not, then you’re getting rained on. If we’re looking at the construct of conservative.
Amen.
Speaker 1 (32:25.494)
Let’s define terms. What do you mean by conservative? Because I don’t think we’re having the same.
I was basing that off of what you were saying, which is that you’re not allowed to do certain things because we’re in a conservative culture. I think that’s fake. I don’t think we’re in a conservative
conservative culture privately
I’m saying I don’t think there is an and or in that way. I think it’s either or. And in that case, to me, it’s like...
So it’s either conservative or not conservative. It’s either... I don’t think...
Speaker 2 (32:58.12)
I think we like to pretend that we’re conservative, we’re not.
We’re somewhere in the middle. feel like we’re somewhere in the middle. Like conservative conservative is like Saudi Arabia head to toe, head job. That’s like really, really. And then like completely liberal is like girls and gays everywhere, tits out, everything going 24 seven. And then we’re somewhere in the middle of that.
Ugh, yeah... Kind of.
So there’s a spectrum, right? And I think all the different views of it are potentially worth exploring. But I think...
Speaker 1 (33:39.98)
the challenge of what’s like the boundaries was something we spoke about before. The boundaries in the sexual relationship with people that weren’t showing up in the same way. What’s the difference between setting those boundaries on public platforms versus setting them in your personal relationships?
I think when you’ve made a commitment to be in a friendship or relationship, you are agreeing to respect how somebody wants to interact with you or they don’t want to interact with you or things that they do want to do with you or things that they don’t or things that they receive as disrespect. I think with the public,
For some reason, everyone is acting like they’re not willing participants in what they choose to engage with. And so if something doesn’t align with you, instead of walking away like you would in a friendship or a relationship, they want to hammer it out of that person. I think some people like to fight, but I think it’s more than that. And especially with women, because I don’t think men receive the same amount of conversation about what they post on Instagram.
Some people just like to fight.
Speaker 1 (34:50.702)
I mean, I would never post a like straight up... What do call it? Budgie smuggler. What’s that? It’s an Australian term for like speedos.
But I mean, there’s plenty of men that do and those they from what I’ve seen, they and I again, I’m talking about straight men. I don’t see the same backlash that women receive.
What?
Why? Because I think in our society, unfortunately, there’s always been scandal and talk and policing of women’s existence, especially our sexuality. And God forbid we’re confident and comfortable in that and we’re not sharing it with anybody. not, we’re not giving it to them. They can’t take it because otherwise why would it be such an issue for us to say,
What do you think about it?
Speaker 1 (35:42.926)
Hmm.
Speaker 2 (35:47.692)
Yeah, don’t talk to me like that. You can look.
There’s no issue with that at all.
And, but I think there is, I think people are poking fun at it.
They’re not seeing the difference.
I mean, there’s definitely a spectrum between someone poking fun at a comment like that and someone like putting their hands on a woman and like sunbathing at a pool or something. They’re very, very different.
Speaker 2 (36:14.666)
But it’s still consent.
I think that the fine line is the internet is the anyone can communicate with anyone that I feel like there’s an implicit invitation of whatever the hell comes your way by posting something onto a public forum. You were inviting wrote any comment, whatever the comment, and you don’t really have the right to be like, no, you can’t say that. You can argue back. You can.
You can absolutely say you cannot say that on my page and delete the comment and never hear from them again.
I guess you can. I guess you can curate it in a way. But you will always have that risk with the nature of content and posting videos and posting photos.
But see, I don’t think it stops at content.
Speaker 1 (37:00.246)
It doesn’t stop a content, but it’s harder. if somebody that says comments on that post and is like poking fun at it versus somebody harassing a girl at a bar, like you’ll get checked a lot quicker.
So.
Speaker 2 (37:20.686)
Okay, I’m gonna give you a real life example. I had a situation where I was on one of the shows. No, no, no, I was on one of the shows, so you can go back and watch it. Where I get into the house and men are calling dibs on who wants to talk to me, da da da. Mind you, I’m just meeting most of these men. And because I had a certain friendship with one of them,
place.
Speaker 1 (37:27.342)
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (37:49.58)
Nothing ever sexual happened, but we would make like funny jokes because I was comfortable with him. The rest of them, in combination with me having been in Playboy, thought that they were entitled to my time. Thought that they were entitled to make certain jokes about me. you’re looking thick today. You’re da da da da. Things of that nature. That I’m sure was, I know it was innocent and it was,
Like what?
Speaker 2 (38:19.95)
coming out of an intention to flirt with me and be friendly with me. But despite me even calling it in its, calling it right when it’s happening, it continued to manifest to the point where I ended up having a whole breakdown about it. And a big reaction was, well, you did Playboy, like, what do you expect? So to me, those comments manifest itself into real life.
Yeah.
because it is real life.
Yeah. So I think underlying that attitude is a lack of respect. Would you say?
Yeah, I think that people struggle with respecting women who are comfortable with showing their bodies if they so choose. I think that’s a problem. Whether it’s a comment in the atmosphere or at a bar. I think people have to dig in deeper to say, why do I feel like I’m owed something from her just because she
Speaker 2 (39:29.794)
wanted to do what she wanted to do.
I didn’t think that in the slightest. I’m like, guess I don’t, that doesn’t compute in my brain as a... Like no one’s owed anything to me. Like a girl walking down the street in a short dress or whatever, like... Cool.
Which part?
Speaker 2 (39:47.598)
Have you ever seen that in your peers?
I in more context, like, I mean, my friends will constantly go up to girls and talk to them and make efforts to interact and.
and take their if they’re if they don’t want to engage they’re like
Eventually they’ll like go away. Yeah, but maybe they’ll have a couple of goes at it first.
A lot of people don’t. A lot of men don’t take rejection well.
Speaker 1 (40:14.19)
And there’s a fine line. That’s what I’m saying. In public especially, it’s like, if someone’s treating somebody disrespectfully, like treating a woman disrespectfully, will, like you give it a bit of time, but then you’re kind of be like, all right, like, chill the fuck out. Like, this is not appropriate. So it goes both ways. and I think that, I think maybe in America especially, the culture here is,
a lot, well, maybe in the, I don’t know what it’s like in maybe the black and Hispanic community, but it seems like in the white community that I’m a part of, it’s, we’re very more subdued of like, but you go to like a, you you go to Europe, for example, I hear all of my like female friends all the time, they go to Europe and they’re like, I was just constantly cat cold. I was just constantly harassed. But here you barely get it.
Compared to other places, you go to Arab, you go to like, female friends. Yeah. You go to, you go to anywhere in the Arab world, you are getting harassed 24 seven by men.
You hear this from your female friend?
Speaker 1 (41:25.294)
Asia, pretty chill. They’re kind of chill. Australia, kind of like America, kind of like Canada, somewhere in the middle of it all. So on the spectrum of all this, it’s not as the Anglo-Saxon Western countries aren’t that intense. So
Ugh,
This is from my experience. This is from just what I’ve heard from my friends and I speak to a lot of people.
I mean, if we’re looking at facts.
One in, think every four women in America alone have been sexually harassed in some capacity. So that kind of discredits.
Speaker 1 (42:09.006)
What would the definition of sexual harassment be in your mind? maybe in, I don’t know, I I don’t know.
definition of the law. Unwanted sexual attention. Or advances.
So where’s the fine line between these men going out of their way to interact with women for the intent of potentially dating sex and marriage versus.
stay away, don’t touch me, don’t come anywhere near me. Because that’s where we’re really getting stuck, I think now in younger men’s experience in dating. And this probably leads into the next thing we can talk about, is dating in 2025. Trying to navigate respectfully these viewpoints from women, especially beautiful women, get advances a lot.
How does, and then also at the same time.
Speaker 1 (43:15.212)
readily saying that there’s no good men out there, there’s no masculine men out there, there’s no, you don’t think so? You don’t think that? Maybe you’re one of the few that are doing all right. But I hear that a lot. hear that like, aren’t men. Men are wanting to be princesses. Men are basically being like, all right, cool.
can’t believe that.
Speaker 1 (43:38.936)
There’s a give and take of this like masculine approach to getting what you want in life and it can be a little bit aggressive.
Speaker 1 (43:50.978)
But if that’s completely subdued and destroyed, then where does it leave dating? Because now it’s like the feminine women are like, this is fucked.
I think we’re just tired of being so settled into our masculine masculinity. And I don’t think that there are a lot of men that are stepping up to meet that expectation. I don’t, I think that there’s a lot of.
entitlement, which is kind of what I’ve been saying all along. I think there’s a level of entitlement that we’re just supposed to meet you where you’re at instead of you rising to the occasion. And I think that’s where women are getting frustrated is that we are making more, we’re making more money now. We’re more independent. We’re doing everything on our own. Why do we even, what are you bringing?
You make a great point.
And so I don’t think that, for me, I don’t think they don’t exist. I just think it’s really rare now, unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (44:52.494)
but they’re the few for sure. And OK, so how does
a guy approaching this component of dating.
work with the fact that maybe they don’t have, they don’t make as much money. Maybe the system for, like, I’m pretty sure like I’ve read before like 58 or 60 % of in America, college degrees are now going to women. And is that because women are smarter than men? Or is that because women have been given more opportunity in spite of men because of the
push against where the pendulum had swung earlier.
I would say I don’t think we’ve been given anything. I think we’re still fighting to get the equal amount of everything.
Speaker 1 (45:48.696)
Everyone’s fighting though, everyone’s always fighting for every, everyone’s fighting for survival.
Not in the same magnitude, no. I’m not fighting at the same capacity or I’m not fighting at the same capacity as a black man. The black man’s not fighting at the same capacity as a white man.
We’re not all equal in the fight. We’re not. Like if we’re talking about equality, we’re not equal, all of us equal in the fight. So when we’re talking about women, we especially aren’t equal in that. So anything that we’ve got from education took us fighting for. It wasn’t given. We barely could vote up until 1965. All of us.
Yeah, right.
I wasn’t alive then so I can’t
Speaker 2 (46:36.458)
Neither was I. But yeah, so that’s within my parents lifetime. My mother couldn’t vote when she was born. And we had to fight for that. And we continue to fight for everything that I don’t know that we’ve been given. just think in that fight, we’ve now earned the right to have certain things for ourselves and we’re not taking it for granted. And in that struggle, we’re looking for people
who understand that and are willing to come equipped with that because let’s be serious, marriage was a contract. It was a business arrangement originally.
I don’t know. It was a contract under God. It was a contract under, like it got, it got lost when the, the countries became more secular, but it is a lifelong contract under God that is God. Well, that’s where it gets messy.
the people who don’t believe in because God wasn’t the original thing for everybody. So then there were always different ideas of marriage, right?
That’s exactly where it gets messy,
Speaker 1 (47:49.71)
I don’t think so. I actually don’t think so. I think it’s just, it’s just been spun off as like the society has become more secular. But I don’t necessarily think that like, if you go back to the foundation of what marriage was, it was a contract and agreement.
in whose book is what I’m saying.
the Quran and the Torah, the Bible, all of the different ones, they all come to marriage as a contract under God. And now we’ve kind of been like, no, screw that, get rid of that. But we’ll keep marriage and then people are like, why?
don’t know what I’m up for.
I said that to say.
Speaker 2 (48:34.156)
It has been a long time since women truly authentically were in a position to say, yes, this is exactly what I want and not based on outside forces, right? At that point, we couldn’t have a checkbook, we couldn’t buy a house, we couldn’t do certain things on our own without our father and or a husband. This is the first time
in recent history that we are able to wield our own at will power, whether we wanna do that or not, which means it’s also the first time that men have been challenged in a way to not, the bare minimum isn’t enough, right? You have a job, you can do this, like that’s not enough anymore. So.
We’re going to fall apart if that’s if it like the foundation needs to shift to something else because if the standard
Why can’t men just step up?
Some people can’t step up. Basically what I’m hearing is the standard for women has gone way higher now. Standard of what is an acceptable dating partner has gone way higher. So let’s just say an average girl, five out of 10, whatever, previously, pre-internet, pre all of this, would meet an average guy, five out of 10, maybe locally, they go, this is pretty good, make it work, figure it out.
Speaker 2 (50:07.31)
because we’re not settling anymore.
Speaker 1 (50:11.82)
No, The, like an average person, I think women get way more disproportional attention, even if they’re just like normal, just run-of-the-mill people. And the equivalent guy, like with the same level of attractiveness, education, isn’t even looked at as a potential mate.
because there is no equivalent.
What does that mean? Of course it’s an equivalent.
I don’t think there is actually. I would say average willy-nilly girl, let’s say a five on the scale, is to me automatically.
higher than a man in a five.
Speaker 1 (50:57.454)
point I’m making. That’s literally the point. So you run out of people very quickly. Cause it’s not even like, it’s not even like a, it’s a bell curve. let’s say you go from a seven to an eight. It’s not like the same amount of people in a seven and eight. It’s like much less. You go from eight to a nine. It’s much less again. Yet the fives are trying to date the nines and the tens and the nines and the tens can get whatever the fuck they want.
In theory.
I mean speaking is a five.
No, in theory, I just feel like I see nines and tens and women and still aren’t, they’re still not getting what they want.
The nine and tens want the nine and ten women. I’m talking about men. The nine and ten men get whatever, not the women. yes, The nine and ten men get whatever they want. everyone below, anyone below that doesn’t exist as a potential partner. And they’re the ones that, the women. Anyone, any of those men below a seven, see you later. Everyone above a seven, amazing.
Speaker 2 (51:42.479)
Seven and above. I would say.
Speaker 2 (51:50.36)
the men or the women.
Speaker 1 (51:59.534)
Yeah, all and now all the girls from one to ten are going after the seven to ten men and The seven and ten men are like cool. I do whatever the hell I want and then that’s where we get situations ships
But why is there such an aversion to just doing better? Because I’m not even talking about money. I’m not even talking about money. I’m talking about even socially speaking.
You don’t need to. They don’t need to because they get, and this is where.
So then why is it on us to then say, okay, then I just won’t, I won’t need those things. And you’re not, you’re still an asshole. Like, why would you tolerate that? What’s, why couldn’t you just learn to be a nicer person instead? And then you’ll actually find that partner who’s willing to take the L maybe don’t make as much money as she does. You know I mean? Like maybe you’re not as educated as she is, but you’re a kind person and you do A, B and C. Like I don’t think there’s any math. How would you know?
Don’t think it’s
Speaker 2 (52:56.014)
To me, men aren’t stepping up for us to see. And not for nothing, you haven’t really advocated for your side of the conversation in terms of men actually stepping up in other ways outside of monetization.
I think that can happen, but then we go back to the masculine. We go back to the masculine-feminine dynamic, and there’s just no respect. There’s no, because it’s like this partner isn’t providing financially, isn’t providing with like masculinity. And generally, a masculine guy is going to be like, I want to provide. So a lot of them are just kind
That’s true!
Speaker 2 (53:45.172)
I remember we both agreed on what we talked about that TikTok I saw where the guy was like, if you let a girl just go back into her baby brain, that’s all we’re asking. You don’t need money to do that. If you’re saying, yeah,
It’s a feeling of safety. Yeah, it’s a feeling of safety. Yes. And that feeling partially comes from financial safety and generally the guys who can make more money.
Speaker 1 (54:15.69)
have that ingrate, that masculinity ingrained in them. Like it’s just a lot of them just kind of get it naturally. So it’s, mean, I feel like we need a part two here.
I we might. I don’t agree. I don’t agree. I think there’s been plenty of relationships and I’ve certainly been in one where he didn’t have much money, but he made me feel very secure, very safe and very attended to.
Yeah. So, okay, let’s dig into that a little bit more before we wrap up. What were the characteristics and traits that made you feel that way as a woman that even though financially you were able to provide more, how did he show up? This is a really good point. Okay.
He was confident. He was kind. I think a big thing for us nowadays is like men are ashamed to be really in love with their girlfriends or their wives and afraid to show that. And I never grew up around men like that. And so I think that I choose you mentality would go a long way. I think it’s the combination of you’re not doing any of that.
and you don’t work. It’s the and of it. I think if you took care of everything and I don’t have to think about it, it’s not on my shoulders. That to me is the masculinity that people are looking for.
Speaker 1 (55:47.118)
Do you
Personally, from your experience, have you had to work on your ability to let go and let a man lead?
Absolutely, I don’t trust any of you motherfuckers right now. No one showed up that way though. No one has earned it. Why would I relinquish control to someone who hasn’t earned it?
And I haven’t been challenged by anybody that has shown up to make me say, okay, this might be the time I need to like actually give this up. Nobody’s shown up that way.
Do you think you would, when that time comes, actually be able to do it?
Speaker 2 (56:26.072)
I would be challenged. It would be hard for me.
So as a guy, I like to feel useful. And if I am with a girl who just has it all sorted, doesn’t need me, it’s like, well, I’m not really needed here. So a part of the attraction is literally just feeling needed. And
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (56:57.198)
Some girls are pretty like some girls like girls are funny, right? They you guys When you’re with when you’re not in when you’re alone and independent you can get shit done. Yeah, but like When you’re with the right guy, you kind of just like Yeah, now some people actually can’t turn that on like some girls I’ve met that are like Play up that side of them with a guy
Power.
to give them the opportunity to invite them to go, let’s see if this, I’m going to give him a shot to see if he will show up in that way. And then if they show up, it’s an, it’s an acceptance of like, okay, okay, cool. I can work with this, you kind of got to, as a woman, you kind of got to give that invitation. Like you got to, you got to be like, yeah, cool. All right. I know I can do this by myself. I don’t trust you.
I don’t even know if I like you. But I’m going to just get a little breadcrumb out of there just to see what you do.
You know, that’s like a normal part of building a relationship. It’s building trust, it’s building loyalty, it’s building all these things. That’s one of the, to me, that’s one of the building blocks. It’s like, okay, let’s see, let’s do a little test. It’s like that TikTok where like the parents leave the cookies and they’re like, don’t touch it to the little kids. It’s part of, you know, growing and teaching somebody something about you. To me, it’s also about that.
Speaker 2 (58:33.154)
feminine power we were talking about at the beginning. It’s like, do you know how to use that?
Speaker 1 (58:40.494)
Some people don’t. Yeah. I mean, also, like, there’s another component of this,
corporate structures and stuff are very like male energy. So women.
tend to need to move into that male energy to be successful in the corporate structure. And the more you practice something, bigger you get at it. It has to become ingrained in your personality for you to almost be successful to the level that you need to be without dismantling the whole thing, which some people are trying to, but I don’t know, there’s value in all of it. at some point, it’s like you have to make a choice to turn it off.
and accept that maybe you won’t get as far as the masculine version of you could get in XYZ domain, but instead it opens up ABC domain.
Yeah, but I think again, that’s rooted in safety. I don’t know that safety is a choice. You either are, you feel safe or you don’t. don’t know that you choose that. I think people would naturally turn it off if they feel like they didn’t need the armor, they would take it off. But am I safe to do that? I think that’s where that kind of decision is made.
Speaker 1 (01:00:01.742)
Would you say women are more or less safer than they were in the 60s or the 50s?
I would say with technology less.
As in online, wait, how do you mean?
I would say that people’s whereabouts are more publicly known, whether they’re a part of it or not. Like you could be in the back of somebody’s Instagram story and then they know where you’re at. So I think just even logistically, yeah, it’s less safe.
I wasn’t really thinking about that component. I was thinking more like just walking down the street, getting attacked, getting harassed. don’t know. I guess we didn’t live then.
Speaker 2 (01:00:51.47)
But yeah, I don’t I wouldn’t know. I wonder.
Yeah, I wouldn’t know.
Because guess the second part of my question was like, I wonder if women were more like feminine then than they are now.
Well, I would say yes.
but they potentially felt less safe. that make sense? So kind of get where I’m trying to go with this. So what’s changed?
Speaker 2 (01:01:09.998)
I
to do. But I also, think it’s tough because the relationship structure has changed so much again, again. And so women aren’t having to be married and at home and maybe with a drunk husband that does the wrong, you know what I mean? Like we, don’t have to tolerate those things anymore. But on the same
Mm.
Speaker 2 (01:01:39.288)
token we don’t necessarily, let me even put it in the construct of my grandparents, my grandfather wasn’t taking any disrespect for any women. If he saw any woman being disrespected, he was not gonna allow that to slide. And I don’t know that we have that level of community in general, relationships aside, that we did then, that we do now, which again, I feel like makes it less safe now.
So I can comment on that as a man. goes both, it’s like two sides of the same coin. said your grandfather, He was probably the same guy that would like cat call girls, you know, on the street. You don’t think so? No. You know? No, you know.
No. He was a very,
Interesting. Yeah. Okay. What was it that made him like that?
He grew up with all women. He was the only man of the house from a very young age. His dad died, his brother wasn’t really there. And then his other brother died before he was 18.
Speaker 1 (01:02:47.982)
Okay. So he built a appreciation for the women’s life. And you think that’s lacking now? Okay. Interesting. We can just keep going now. I’m conscious of time. So I feel like we’re going to do a part two. This is so much fun.
a little bit.
Speaker 1 (01:03:08.878)
It’s been really interesting. I want to do just chat about some general philosophical stuff before we wrap up. Wrapping up on this, just wrapping up on the dating thing, what do you think are the lessons here between the celibacy, sexualization and dating? Where do you think we land from here?
as a community or for me.
I mean, we are the community as a combination of individuals.
I think we have to be willing to look in the mirror and grow. I think a lot of people don’t even want to be vulnerable with themselves about their part that they play in dating and how to evolve. And I think we’ve got to stop playing the blame game and just do better and not be afraid of what other people might say or think about it.
Okay, so digging into some general philosophical questions, what’s the biggest thing over the last two years you’ve changed your mind on?
Speaker 2 (01:04:07.458)
besides being celibate and not. Yeah, I think it would be that.
Nice fucks.
Speaker 1 (01:04:19.074)
Yeah. I think it’s good. I think it’s good. I,
It’s difficult in this city especially, like everyone’s pretty like sexually liberal and I don’t know if it necessarily is a positive.
But that too, I think.
I have only had like two experiences since not being celibate anymore. Over the last year and a half, two years now, two years now.
How long ago was that?
Speaker 2 (01:04:54.508)
And it was really fun and it was really exciting and it was really liberating and I really enjoyed myself until there started to get to a point where I was like, yeah, I don’t like this anymore. I just feel like I wasn’t getting what I needed out of the situation. Like everything’s fun and games when we both can be like, what are you doing tonight? And when you don’t have that same rhythm, it’s not fun anymore.
or changed.
Speaker 1 (01:05:21.858)
Yeah, I’m getting to this point where I’m just like, the casualness is just not it. Yeah. And it’s like, it’s empty.
And you want something more rooted and more connected in something else. But it makes it tough because, and again, I think this differs with women and men. Even the most open woman, I still don’t think is having as much sex as a man. so it gets tough for us because it feels almost like a self-punishment.
Damn, I’d love to get some dick tonight, but, like, what am I going to do? This strange man that I don’t know doesn’t deserve it either.
That’s tough.
Yeah, I mean, you don’t necessarily have to follow all of your bass impulses.
Speaker 2 (01:06:20.726)
Right. And it means something different, I think, when we do.
It’s not a good thing, don’t think. think control of our urges as humans is what makes us better than beasts.
for sure, discipline for sure. But even in those control, even if you go six months, you’re like, I want tonight to know, like, this is what I’m in the mood for. You still have that conversation with yourself. Like, okay, I do that. And then what?
Yeah, and then what is the problem?
Right. Which equally like, yes, of course that makes sense, but it also sucks at the same time.
Speaker 1 (01:06:56.674)
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:07:01.102)
It’s not easy is it? I ended this with more questions than answers. Sorry everybody listening, I have not solved the problem of dating in 2025 yet. But we’ll get a part two and we’ll get there. What is an example of a small kind gesture somebody did for you that impacted you immensely?
I don’t know, anytime somebody gives me like a random flower or something, it really makes me feel nice. I can’t explain it. I’m just like, wait, what? I was at the airport for Mother’s Day, which is obviously a tough day for me. And they were giving out like little bouquets and she’s like, this is for you. And I was like, what? And it was just so nice. Yeah. They go a really long, a really long way.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:07:39.438)
Yeah, just random acts of kindness.
Speaker 1 (01:07:46.946)
Yeah, have you applied those experiences to showing up differently in your life?
So right now I’m really challenging myself on saying hi to people in the elevator. Like I feel like it’s just like this really awkward...
like experience, you know what I mean? Where it’s like, you’re just looking at you, you’re sharing space, but you’re not saying anything. And so I’m trying to get better. like, hey, how are you? Or have a good night or have a good one. I’m working on that right now.
Good, I say hi to so many people all the time. It’s so fun.
But then some of the reactions are like, you good?
Speaker 1 (01:08:22.022)
And then you’ll see them the next time, like, hey, and then they’ll be like, hello. And then the third time you’ll be like, hey, and then they’ll be like, Just let it cook, Exactly. Let it build. There’s different levels of openness, as we’ve indicated clearly in this podcast. So.
I remember you.
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (01:08:41.71)
For sure. For sure.
Speaker 1 (01:08:49.526)
What’s a core lesson you want somebody to take away from this conversation?
to live life by your own rules, but always being open to new ones.
What is the saying I like? It’s fully gone. yeah, got it. Firm beliefs held loosely. I think about that all the time. Strong beliefs held loosely.
Yeah.
Because I have lots of opinions, but if good information comes through, I’ll be like, let me think about it.
Speaker 2 (01:09:23.054)
Okay. Right. Right. Like have a solid foundation, but you could build in a different direction than maybe you originally thought. You don’t have to stick to the blueprint.
Cognitive dissonance. Jordan, is there anything you’re excited about at the moment you’d like to let the listeners in on?
What am I excited about? I’m just excited about summer to be honest with you. I feel like everything is always happening. My weeks look very different week to week, day to day. So just keep up with me and see what my summer is looking like.
And where can people find you if they’re interested?
You can find me at Jordy underscore Jor on Instagram, TikTok, Twitter or X. You can also watch my podcast with Angela Yee’s lip service on YouTube and on Instagram.
Speaker 1 (01:10:18.382)
And my last question is, what do think the meaning of life is?
Honestly, lessons. I almost look at it like we’re like everything’s chapters and we’re just like this one big book and every chapter is about learning something. Now what that ends up meaning in the end, I don’t know.
I don’t know what the chapters or the lessons are for, but that’s what I think life is about.
Jordan, thank you. Cool. And if you’ve made it here this far, and you want to learn more lessons, go to YouTube, search that one time without a memory, click subscribe, like the video and leave us a comment. Cool.
Thank you.
