San Holo: Finding Authentic Success and the Power of Existential Dance Music
Stop making art for the masses and start building your own truth.
I just sat down with San Holo (Sander van Dijck)
A superstar DJ and founder of BitBird who pioneered a unique sound for the outcasts.
In this episode you’ll learn:
How he used the “Percentage Theory” to master his mental health on tour.
The reason he paid to buy his way out of a major label deal.
Why sadness is a primary driver for profound creativity and connection.
We dive into the details later in the conversation.
If you like the episode, please subscribe.
Timestamps
00:00 Intro
02:41 Balancing fame and authenticity
05:06 Creating connection through emotion
07:55 Finding your unique sound
12:48 The role of sadness in creativity
20:34 Lessons for young artists
25:52 The Percentage Theory
36:50 Loneliness in the spotlight
46:42 Navigating introversion and extroversion
1:01:59 Creating your own truth
1:05:35 A message of love and kindness
Listen
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Here’s the full transcript:
Metwally — That One Time Podcast (00:00.044)
It’s a game. As long as I enjoy playing that game, it’s fine. I can always go back to the core, which is music. What happens when your art becomes a global phenomenon, but you still feel like the kid at the back of the class? Sunhollow has played to tens of thousands, but his mission remains deeply personal. Create existential dance music for the outcasts. I resonate to the kids at the back of the class, the weirdos, the outcasts, the kids that are not part of the Cool Kids Club.
but by being the light of the party, comes with a cost. Today, we peel back the curtain on the introverted side of a superstar DJ. From breaking down at Tomorrowland over a kick drum, to the profound beauty found in sadness. Sadness is not always bad. There’s beauty in it too, in a weird way. Crying has brought me some of the most epiphanies and songs ever. I could not have written most of my songs if I was just happy all the time. Stick around as we discuss why he had to buy his way out of a major label deal.
to stay authentic and how a simple percentage can your mental health.
Welcome to That One Time with Adam Metwally, the podcast bridging the gap between health, hustle and happiness. We’re at Thursday Labs Studio in Venice, Los Angeles, and today’s guest is San Holo, aka Sander van Dyck. Air horn. Right? The man who taught the bass scene how to feel again. Your name is San Holo. My name is San Holo.
And it’s obviously a nod to Star Wars. Tell us about the story on the day that Disney reached out to you. Well, Saan Holo, you like, you got to understand. My name is Saander and people have been calling me Saan ever since I was born. My mom was always like, Saan, know, dinner’s ready. know, Saan, come out, see this. at one point I was making beats for my friends because I started out as a hip hop producer and we’re just having fun making beats.
Metwally — That One Time Podcast (02:04.77)
doing ridiculous raps over those beats. And they were like, Sander van Dijk, this isn’t really a poppin’ hip hop name, like a beat maker name. So one of my friends, Damien, I don’t know if you’re watching Damien, Damien said, what about Son Holo? And everyone started laughing. I thought it was ridiculous, but of course I went with it. And it was kind of a joke. was kind of a, music was never a joke to me, but.
But that little project was just like, okay, I’m song holo. And then I released a couple of songs as song holo, the remixes, and it blew up. And now I’m song holo. And for the longest time, I was scared that people were gonna think that this was all a joke to me. Like, song holo. I’ve literally seen people do that, like song holo. And then they hear the music and I guess, and they’re like, okay.
For the longest time I wanted to change my name. I wanted to change it into BitBird, my now label. But I stuck with Son Holo because at some point there was just no going back. And the whole Disney thing, I don’t really want to talk about it too much because it was a crazy part of my life. And I can’t really talk about it, to be honest. But I don’t know.
Fair enough. mean, I feel like, how did you feel when that happened though? my, my, my den, you know, I went through a couple of managers throughout, you know, was been doing this for 11 years, 12 years now. And, my manager handled that whole situation. So I, I was around a time when I was just literally learning how to produce music still. And I could just.
Thankfully focus on the music part of things and playing my first shows Because I didn’t know how to DJ at all. I did not know how to DJ or or what the EDM scene meant I was just making beats and You know, my first show I had to play I had to rent CD Jays to practice
Metwally — That One Time Podcast (04:26.648)
So I would drive to this place, rent CDJs for two days because I had no money, know. Drive back and I’ve dropped them off again. And then I guess like hope that it would work out. And the first show I played was like, the mixer was different. So I didn’t know. I messed that all up. I thought this is it. know, long story short, I just focused on the music and everything figured itself out. Figured itself out. Yeah, for sure. So.
You used to produce rap. Yeah. Can you rap? no, I can’t rap for shit. Like, trust me. But I’ve always been inspired by hip hop and beats. You know, there was so there’s so much freedom in in sampling and making beats. That’s where the whole EDM thing started for me. I never wanted to be a DJ. I just wanted to make beats. And 2014.
was kind of when Future Base and Trap started to really pop off. I still remember seeing stuff like the Harlem Shake. Remember the Harlem Yeah, I remember the Harlem Shake. That was crazy. Yeah. And it was... The viral thing was cool about it. Like, the dance and stuff was cool. But what really spoke to me was like... I think it was that song that made me realize, whoa, I don’t need a rapper. I can just make beats and replace the vocals by crazy sounds.
And I can just go perform that. that’s, you know, so if Bauer, shout out Bauer, just, I just did a studio session with him actually. I think he was one of the guys who inspired me to be like, to, make beats without a rapper, without a vocalist and kind of replaced that element with, with new sounds with like crazy bleeps and bloops and eight bit sounds and
Yeah. That’s cool. Yeah. It’s very cool. So it’s super interesting that you go from making rap beats to then making a remix of the next episode by Dr. Dre, which then becomes one of the most viral songs of probably the decade. Insane. What? I looked at it yesterday and it was 278 million plays on YouTube. What do you think? Insane. Shout out Trap Nation for uploading were crazy. Yeah. They were really good.
Metwally — That One Time Podcast (06:55.502)
And the great thing about that Trap Nation era is that a lot of my fans that were listening to that stuff were 12 years old playing Call of Duty. They were playing Halo, Call of Duty, listening to Trap Nation and my remakes. Yeah, listening to Trap Nation. Really? Yeah, yeah. So now 10 years later, now they’re 21 and now they still come to the shows, you know, so I have this, I’m still touring, I’m still, you know, I play shows almost every weekend because of
You know, people still mentioned the Trap Nation era, which is so cool. I’m really fortunate that Trap Nation and their fan base, you know, listened to me to that extent. Like 280 million plays. It’s a lot of people. These kids were obsessed with that song. That’s almost the population of the United States. I didn’t know that. I didn’t know that. Yeah.
Yeah, it’s cool. It’s cool when you put it into perspective like that. How do you feel about the song? Do you kind of hate it now though? I mean, with a lot of these things. No, that remix is fire. I’m not gonna lie. I still remember showing it to my friends because the drop was so like melodic. And they were like, I don’t know, man, it’s a little bit too exotic. They were like, they were not feeling that drop. And I was just like, just wait. Put it out and...
It’s a really weird drop. It’s like a...
It’s like, what is that? It’s not a drop. Yeah.
Metwally — That One Time Podcast (08:38.019)
That’s that you don’t think about that when you think about Dr. Dre. But I don’t know how that came about, but it worked. So don’t listen to your friends. Don’t listen to your friends. Did Dr. Dre ever reach out to you? No, that’s that’s one of my. Life goals is that that remix cleared. You know, that would be crazy. That would be wild. That’d be, you know, maybe. Let’s just manifest it right now. One day.
The next episode remix, song, hello, Dr. Dre, Snoop Dogg, it’s going to be on Spotify. Nice. I hope. Well, maybe we can blow a reel up that they end up seeing. They all love making money. So this song is going to make them a lot of money if they put it on Spotify because everyone will listen to it. So please, let’s just put it out. Let’s make it happen. You mentioned before we started that you’re doing a writing camp with T-Pain last week.
So how do you feel when you look back at the kid who was writing hip hop beats to this guy who now spends a week straight with one of the most iconic rappers to the 2010s? Just to give you some context, T-Pain once again to bass music, you know, he’s really passionate about dubstep and beats and bass music in general.
I can tell, I can tell that he’s really passionate about it when we were playing songs in the studio and he’s like all the sounds and the studs. It’s so similar to hip hop and you know, making a bass face like that. That’s the same thing when what happens when it, when a beat drops or when, when you hear a good beat. I was asked to join this, this bootcamp, bass bootcamp. Basically they rented out a club for four days.
we would make straight up bangers for four days and then perform it on the last day when everyone would come to the club and hear what we made. And everything, it was a crazy week, no sleep, just making beats and making bangers. Sold it out, he sold out his first show as a DJ. it was just honestly...
Metwally — That One Time Podcast (11:01.814)
It was really magical to be there for me because I’m a kid from a small town in Holland and I never thought I’d be in a room with legends like that. And it’s also a little bit of a middle finger to everyone who said I couldn’t do it. That’s definitely a thing. I still remember when I switched from playing guitar to making beats. This was, I think, 15 years ago and I had people say, I quote,
When are you going to put your talents, when are you going to use your talents for real music again? And real music meaning guitar and bands and playing actual music. A lot of people thought electronic music was not real music. There was this whole, think those, those, those ideas have faded. Everything is kind of now with Ableton and everything is kind of all.
the same, it’s even bands are using Ableton now to produce music. electronic music is everywhere. But back then, like 15 years ago, was definitely you had the band world and you had the DJ world. And the bands looked down on DJs and producers. but then, you know, now I’m in the studio with T-Pain and Tom Morello, the guitar player of Rage Against the Machine. did a session with him, you know, and I,
It’s kind of just for me, it’s a pat on the back saying like follow your gut feeling and it will bring you to the right places. How old were you when all this was happening? would have been like 18, 19 when it all started to really... You’re 33 now, right? I’m 35 years old. So 20. I was 23 when this started to...
kind of bubble online. yeah. So I was about, remember I was about to, cause I started the guitar. Couldn’t find any work. was a guitar teacher and I was about to start, a new education. what do you call it? A new study, a new study for, for becoming a school teacher.
Metwally — That One Time Podcast (13:28.798)
so I could teach at schools. Thank God I blew up. I would be... I mean, no offense, but like I think, you know, that... I remember graduating as a guitar player and for two years trying to find a job, trying to find gigs and it really not working out for me. And I was like, damn, maybe this is just not it for me. Maybe my IDs are too...
Maybe I need to be more commercial to make it in this industry. And then those remixes happened and I’m grateful that it all, I don’t think I’d be very happy as a high school teacher, yeah. Shout out to all high school teachers though. like, you guys are They paved the way for somebody like you to learn. It’s important. Yeah. just, it never felt like that was my path.
If, but if you can like, you’re now sharing knowledge in a different way. So you’ve taken it to the next level, which is great. Yeah. And I love sharing my knowledge and I still love teaching. I love teaching, you know, people production stuff, guitar stuff. I love to share my knowledge with people. So, yeah. So how did you, as a 23 year old kid, find the right path by trusting your judgment against?
all these people telling you that you’re going down the wrong path. Yeah, I don’t know. Apparently there’s this whole psychology around it that there’s this, do you know the Enneagram thing? Have you ever done that Enneagram test? It’s a theory, right? There’s this, there’s this, a couple of personality tests that you can do and none of them are scientifically like a hundred percent proven, but they’re good tools. And apparently,
I’m a four, which means that it’s called the individualist. And it means that you basically feel like you are so different from everyone. honestly, kind of what they say about the fours is kind of snobby. When I read it, I was like, damn, this is me, but it also doesn’t feel very good reading this.
Metwally — That One Time Podcast (15:58.094)
What I noticed is that I don’t like to be part of the masses of what or what the masses are doing. I want to create my own lane and follow my own path. And that is how I find my identity. Whereas a lot of people, and I wish I was more like that, find identity in shared community. it’s not a right or bad
bad, good, wrong thing. It’s what moves you. And I’ve noticed this with songs that I love to listen to when they’re small and then they blow up and I suddenly don’t care about them as much anymore. And I thought, is that an ego thing? It’s a hipster. Is that a hipster thing? Am I just being snobby? like I knew them. No, but it’s deeper than that. think there’s an intimacy I feel with...
And this might be hard to explain on a podcast or online because everything has to be so quick, but there’s an intimacy in finding a song that not a lot of people know. Like a little secret. Yeah. And I think it’s completely, I beat myself up a long time for being like that for like, like everyone’s doing that. I want to do the other thing because I want to be so different. hearing that sounds like
what you just said, such a hipster thing, right? Like, you’re like such a hipster. But if you look at the more, the psychology behind it, if that gives me identity and if that moves me and inspires me, then why not go that way? You know, why I think... Well, there’s no rules at end of the day. There’s no rule. And if I look back, it all makes sense. Like, I remember dyeing my hair blue when I still had hair. I wanted to have blue hair because...
No one else had blue hair. And not because, look at me, purely for not being purely to, I guess, to prove to myself that I could follow my own path. I know when I explain this, sounds very like hipster-y, like, I’m different. understand fully where you’re coming from.
Metwally — That One Time Podcast (18:20.93)
But there is an emotional, psychological layer to it that I think a lot of artists have. They want to express themselves in their way. And sometimes it sounds very egotistical. Like, have to express myself. I have to tell my story. My story is so important. But I know my story is not important. I’m just a speck of dust. I know that very well.
The reason I get out of bed in the morning is to tell my story and hopefully people can connect to that or find some sort of inspiration from that. And that gives me purpose, you know? Well, at the very least, 278 million people. Yeah, I guess so, One small piece of the work you’ve done. And it wouldn’t be gratifying if I didn’t follow my path. If I would just do a cover. And there’s a lot of people that make music
For the opposite reason, to connect to everyone and to feel connected to whatever is popular or trending. That is also completely fine. That is not what motivates me. Yeah. You know, different ways. I mean, I feel like at the end of the day, especially with creative pursuits, if you don’t find alignment with what’s deep inside of you, you end up just burning out. Yeah. Yeah.
It’s okay if it’s completely possible for deep inside of you to connect to whatever is in line with what’s popular right now. If you want to feel connected to... I’ve always gotten a lot of strength and motivation from introducing something new and then maybe people trickle in like, this is kind of cool. cool. And I’m building that new bubble.
That’s what excites me. And that’s why I’ve always, you know, tried to, I guess, think of new, create new genres, like existential dance music and wholesome rhythm. Just a little twist on, No, it’s great. And I might seem to be working, so that’s most important thing. But I think it’s really important to know. I know it’s not, I’m not...
Metwally — That One Time Podcast (20:45.55)
I’m not curing any diseases. I know I’m not doing... It’s very easy to come across as some like, I’m doing such important work. It’s not. I don’t know, man. I don’t know. It’s hard to... There’s a...
Humility to it as well where I know it’s not that important to tell my story My personal story. it’s so important. I got to put it into songs. Isn’t that but
I know I’ve learned to accept that that is what I guess I’m good at and what people resonate with too and what they can connect to. So I’m just doing that. If you think about it, like one of the highest, you may not be actively curing cancer, but loneliness and lack of connection causes disease and music is a very, powerful way to connect people. So maybe in some small way you are contributing positively to
I hope so. The physical health of the fans and everyone that connects with your music. yeah. I do want to uplift people and I resonate to the kids at the back of the class. The weirdos, the outcasts, the kids that don’t, you know, are not part of the Cool Kids Club. I feel like my job is like, let’s make that the Cool Kids Club.
You know, like that’s like your own club. Yeah, make your own cool kids club Yeah, because it only takes a certain amount of people for that to become the new cool And it’s always weird at first when I started sending out my songs like we rise one of my top Street streaming songs when I first sent it to labels. They were like, it’s too You know exotic. It’s too colorful. It’s too this to that
Metwally — That One Time Podcast (22:50.83)
And it’s always weird at first until enough people listen to it and say it’s cool. Then it’s cool. But it was always cool. You know, it was always it was already cool. Someone just has to take the leap. Yes. Which have been. Yeah. What was it like growing up? seems grown up is awesome. Yeah. I know. know. know. know. know. I know.
Metwally — That One Time Podcast (23:21.408)
felt like an outcast. How was that whole dynamic that led to the creativity that then ended up flowing out? Yeah, it definitely felt like an outcast. I definitely felt like I was listening to music that no one else was listening to. I still remember I had to write down my top three songs and I was just... I already knew no one was going to know these bands. did you pick? Do you remember? No, it was just like...
underground indie bands from Holland and UK.
think growing up, I was always part of the kids that would hang out not on the playground, somewhere in a corner at the road skating and putting wax on the curb to try to do a dark slide on it. Could you skate?
A little bit. I could do a kickflip. That’s about as far as I got as well. Yeah. And I was too scared to jump off of any stairs. But I don’t know. I always felt like I wanted to do something. When I wanted to study guitar, I think my... I know what it’s called in English, but your mentor at school who was supposed to guide you...
to make your future decisions. Well, what do you want to be? Is there a name for that? like, there’s this- not sure, yeah. He was like, you want to Career counselor or something? Yeah, yeah. It’s like, he was like, well, being a musician is not for everyone. It’s like very hard to, it’s very difficult and there’s not a lot of money in it. And that even won’t, maybe want to do it more because no one was doing that. was rare, you He was like, you could do communication or like study.
Metwally — That One Time Podcast (25:26.114)
you know, business or whatever. But I knew I wanted to do music because that was nothing excited me as much as music. was not even a plan B. There was no other. It was just music. now I guess you do communications and you do business and you do all of these things under music. Interesting, interesting take. Yeah, I had to learn a lot of that throughout this journey because they
Even at the guitar school, they teach you how to make music and like be a good musician, but they don’t teach you what to do when you actually make it, when you are in a position of... Yeah, so there’s a lot of learning involved with that. It’s a whole new set of skills. And you’ve got your label now, which is BitBird, which is funny because your rule is, correct me if wrong, like genres don’t exist. Yeah.
ties in with where your head was at earlier on in your career and kind of why you got into music. But I want to tap into the young artists and what you’re seeing is like the number one mistake they’re doing when they send you demos. What could they be doing better? Okay. Yeah. I think what I said earlier, everything is weird at first.
I think that is really a line you have to cross as an artist yourself to realize.
Because all your reference is what you know. You know, like what I see now a lot is that everyone is sending UKG demos, know, UKG house demos. And it’s because that’s what, that’s what they see works and they see a lot of people dancing to it on social, on popular DJs, 360 set. so that’s when you get a lot of UKG and
Metwally — That One Time Podcast (27:34.766)
similar sounding stuff. And I think you have to at some point learn that your quality as a producer goes beyond what you know that is good. If you keep referencing your qualities to what you know, then
you can’t step out of or move forward from that. It sounds maybe like a little bit of mumbo jumbo what I’m saying right now, but I guess there’s producers who want to fit in and there’s producers that want to do something new. And I think those producers are often most successful. People that get popular by doing something new. It’s a hard road. It’s not the easiest path.
But if you look at the greatest like Skrillex and, you know, they were all, there’s no one that sounds like that. There’s no one that sounds like R.O. Grime. There’s no one that sounds like Fred again, you know. They did their own thing. And then they become a genre. They become their own genre almost. And I think I’ve always been inspired by that, you know, becoming your own genre.
That’s why I’ve been creating my own genres, like wholesome rhythm and stuff. like, it has a, it’s, I do that with a wink, you know, it’s, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a fun play. Yeah. A name can never have a genre. It’s, the sounds have to genre. The, the feeling have captured a genre, not the name, but I try to kind of, I don’t know, naming stuff. It’s, it’s also marketing and it’s also a
being smart with the way you put your stuff out in the world. So with that in mind, for artists that might be feeling lost or even people who maybe are trying to get into becoming a thought leader in a space, how have you found an effective way to find your voice or your sound or your uniqueness? What I always just notice is that there is a huge pushback when I do something, a pushback within me.
Metwally — That One Time Podcast (30:00.906)
when I do something that sounds similar to something else or too similar. If it’s 20 % similar, I can do with it. That’s basically what I did with the next episode, Dr. Dre Snoop Dogg remix. was like, okay, this is... The vocals are the same, but the rest of the beat is completely different. I have this innate pushback that is like, nah, this is not cool if it sounds too much like something else.
Don’t take any advice from me because this is just my way and I think there’s too many people online saying, if you want to do this, you got to do this and this and this. It’s all lies. It’s not real. Everyone is different. Every person is a universe by themselves. you can, you know, people can tell you so much stuff about what to do or what works for them, but they forget that everyone is different.
Every single person is a different universe with a different path, a different psychology internally. And you just really have to find what moves you, what truly moves you and your heart. I think, yeah. For me, it’s that pushback. like, that sounds too much like that. I don’t want to be that. For some people, it’s a compliment. say, like...
I love your new song. sounds like a Sucrelex song or like it sounds like Fredigan meets. And I’m like, damn, I wish I wish I wish it sounded like me. I wish it had a song holo. So have you found any outside of just trusting that feeling? Have you found any consistent techniques to find that uniqueness? Because it’s very difficult. Yeah, because you’re exploring something that’s maybe no one’s touched on before. Yeah, I think that’s when I’m
What I’m trying to do with the wholesome rhythm stuff is trying to introduce something new to a genre that’s mostly been copy paste for a while. The same thing happened to future bass. Future bass didn’t exist. It was just melodic trap beats and people putting chords on trap beats. And then it became future bass. then future bass became a formula.
Metwally — That One Time Podcast (32:25.814)
became SawSynths, 808s and trap drums. And at some point, very cheesy vocals. I always call it Disney trap. That’s what FutureBase became. And for me, FutureBase was futuristic, innovative, always evolving.
always future. I’ll look at the, well, what’s not done before. That’s what future base meant to me. But people need to, people love putting things into boxes. So like at some point I just felt like future base is not really what I’m doing anymore because it’s a become a formula. I like the percentage vibrant and percentage. How are you feeling approach to responding to how are you? That just happened to
I don’t know how that happens. Yeah. So, so what would be some good tips for artists who feel like this, they’re stuck or they’re not vibrant right now? How do they get out of that funk? The whole percentage thing started out super organically. I was on tour and I think my, my friend East ghosts who I was touring with at the time, he said, uh, how are you feeling, man? I said, and I said like, I’m man, I don’t know. I’m like 60 % right now.
And it’s like I’m feeling like 75%. And I was like, okay, interesting. And then I started putting that in my Twitter name, like Sonhollow 75%. And then everyone in EDM, like all the fans started putting that in their username, like their daily percentage. It was during COVID as well at some point when I feel like everyone felt a need to express their mental state online.
And everyone started doing the percentage thing in their name, 68, 99, 57. And it became part of my logo. Now it’s like, it’s like an arrow up percentage, because at the end of the day, I just want to lift people up. sometimes you wake up feeling 33%. Sometimes you wake up feeling 90%. It’s like, don’t, you’re not always in control, but you can lift
Metwally — That One Time Podcast (34:50.894)
You can lift your own percentage by lifting up others. That was my whole theory. Like you can lift yourself up by lifting up others. It’s just like a positivity thing, I think, in the end. Yeah. If you were to look at me now after the last 40 minutes, what percentage do think I would be at? I’m not an expert at this, but I think you’re like solid 84%. Honestly, I was going to say 85 % in my head. I’m just saying. I’m just saying. I’m just saying.
Where are you at today?
You know, I think I’m at a 79%. That’s pretty good. Yeah. Pretty good. Pretty good. Yeah. Would you say your baseline is lower on average or like high? Like are you generally just like a, like a lower feeling person that then comes up in moments or you’re high feeling Apparently there’s there’s a genetical thing going on too, where, you know, I think- Makes for good music.
Yeah. As a cultural thing, think Europeans, for example, Europeans look at what could go wrong and Americans tend to look at what could go right. I definitely have this... Australians are like Europeans with the what could go wrong. Yeah. There’s more of a melancholy going on inside me at all times. There’s an existential loneliness.
But at the same time, it’s also the thing that inspires me. So I have a weird relationship to it. There’s beauty in sadness. Sometimes I talk about this with Americans and they don’t always understand it. Some of them do, but some of them are like, what do you mean sadness? Sad is bad. And sadness is not always bad. There’s beauty in it too, in a weird way. Yeah. Everything is so fluid to me. A lot of things are very fluid. Good, bad, wrong.
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It’s hard for me to function in this world sometimes because of those. feel a lot. Yeah, like sadness is beautiful in a way. Gosh, crying and the connotation to, or like, why do you say that? The feeling you link to crying is sad and bad and get out of it as quick as possible. But man, like crying is...
Crying has brought me some of the you know, epiphanies and songs ever. You know, I could have not, I could not have written most of my songs if I was just happy all the time, you know, so. Well, it’s a self-expression at the end of the day of like your, like music is an emotional release in some form. So like what’s an example of one of those moments where like sadness has actually come out?
in the form of music, like what’s that story? It’s a good question. I think it’s a constant thing for me. music for me is the only way to truly express myself. I recently made a video on TikTok saying that, you know, I think a lot of artists don’t like talking about their music, like, hey, listen to my song.
check out this new song I did or here’s how I made this. It doesn’t come natural to us because playing something like this, like... you
you
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It has a feeling. How am I going to explain that feeling? It’s not possible. Words are only... We think words are like the...
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I can just Dutch, but it’s very different. You no idea what I’m saying now.
Lecker. So even language itself has a different feeling to it. And some things sound great in American or English. Yeah, American English. And some things don’t sound good in Dutch when I sing it. But then chords and tones and notes carry this... Sometimes I cannot express how I’m feeling with words, but I can play you a chord.
Seems nice. Yeah, sounds kind of nice. I think today I’m feeling like this. A little bit. How does this feel to you? It’s just like very elevated and kind of like hopeful. Yeah, hopeful. Yeah. But then I play this. It’s a little like, like a little concerned.
Yeah. But not like too bad. Have you ever experienced the difference between minor and major? I know the concept, but I couldn’t tell you the technicalities. I’m going to play two chords. You’re going tell me what is minor, what is major. Major is happy. Minor is sad. Yeah. OK? What is this? Which one is the happy chord? The first one or second one?
you
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Do it one more time.
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I think the second one’s a happy one and first one’s a sad one. It’s true. Well, not the sad one, but the... Yeah, this is happy. This is what we perceive as happy. Sad. It’s like the upwards inflection makes a difference and the downwards inflection makes... But then there’s chords, the combination of chords. A major chord can sound sad depending on the second chord.
Now the first chord sounds sad too, but this is a major chord So sad so so sad because you know the other chords but the actual sad the minor version of this That’s the sad chord but this
It’s sad. So there’s just this magic that I don’t understand in music that can express so much more than words. don’t know how we got here, but it was important for me to say this. What was the question again? We’re just talking about the...
energy of sadness in the music. And yeah. So basically to recap, it’s you’ve really just found there’s a lot of emotion and you find the best way to express that emotion is not in the crudeness of words, but yeah. There’s things, there’s things in words that you just can’t capture. Yeah. Good, bad. There’s so much in between that. Yeah. And that music, music can really capture that for me. It’s funny that like the
The people who create so much connection and so much emotion for others can also be the most disconnected and lonely in their lives. As a touring artist, people would look at you and go, wow, what a life. But it’s not glamorous. It’s lonely. They’re lonely on the road. You get stopped in the streets now, I’m guessing, in some scenarios.
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So do you have a moment that you can recall back where you were just like surprisingly lonely in the sea of what should have been heightened emotion? yeah. Yeah. I remember being in a tour bus in my little bunk bed going to the next show. I remember recording on my phone, on my voice memo. Like I feel so far away from me. Like I felt very far removed from from who I was, really.
Yeah. Kind of just like, but then at the same time that inspired me for a new song, you know, sort of it’s a, it definitely is a lonely. Yeah. It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s hard to explain. It’s hard to explain without sounding ungrateful. I mean, look, at the end of the day, there’s, can still be grateful and be realistic about what you’re feeling. Like it’s, I, it’s not, I don’t think it’s anything like that. Yeah. I think.
There’s a lot of moments where I feel like people only get to see the shine. People only get to see the songs, the final version of the songs. And people, oh my God, this song is so good. But there’s songs that I put out that have driven me crazy and have kept me up at night. I remember when I first dropped my first album, album one. Aply named.
My management hated that Appropriately named album. They hated that album name. I was like, know I got the perfect title for my first album. Album one. And they were like, they started laughing. They started like, come on. It’s like, no, trust me. It’s album one. I think it was a week before release and I realized the kicks. I noticed this thing. I was playing it live and the kicks were not good.
and I decided to replace all the kicks on the record. And it was already mastered and so the master had to be taken away and I had to replace all the kicks. I playing main stage tomorrow and I was crying because I was like, I was like, I was just like, I can’t get this done in time. And it was just a horrible feeling. It was just like the product I thought I
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I was going to be the product. Now I hate because the kicks are not good. Replace all the kicks. And it was just like up all night trying to get it ready. And there’s just a lot of, I can’t explain why that was so important to me, but I had to change it and no one else understood. No one else understood. I showed it to my manager, my friends, it’s like, sounds good. And I was like, no, these kicks are not good. They’re not good enough. And that’s just something you have to deal with yourself, you know.
Do you get concerned that like, you’re maybe coming across as like neurotic at times and people are just like, what the hell bro? Yep. How do you manage that? Cause it’s a fine line between like getting the right art, like getting the art exactly where it needs to be. And then like bringing all the non-creative people along for the ride. It was a fine line there. I am definitely neurotic and OCD about sounds and about feeling. And I think
communication to your, to the people around you is important. If you just stop talking to anyone and start to like, think that’s when it can go wrong. If you can just explain to people, listen, I know you might not understand this, but I feel in my heart that I need to change this and give me some time. I will be able to fix this to make it feel right for, for myself. think communication is really important and not everyone is a good communicator.
Everyone’s different. think communicating everything really clearly to your team and the people around you saved me many times. Saved me many times from being labeled as a crazy person, you know. I know I’m crazy. I know I’m crazy, but I’ve got this under control. I know what I’m doing. And never yell at people, never scream at people, just be.
carry some sort of peace, you know? Yeah, how have you gone about finding peace in the music industry, especially? I don’t know. For me, the most peaceful thing I ever told myself was there’s music and I will always have that. I will always be able to go back to music and there’s music industry, which are two very separate things. You know, if I decide today that I am done with the music industry and the...
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and everything that it takes to do that, I can always go back to music. And then I don’t care if five people are listening or five million people are listening. I can always go back to music because that’s what I started with. I was so excited about music when I first started.
putting stuff out and no one was listening. I went on walks through the snow listening to my own stuff and I was just like felt alive. And I know I can still have that feeling. And there’s a music industry and you have to do certain things and have to reach deadlines and tour and do political things and that’s all, it’s a game.
And as long as I enjoy playing that game, it’s fine. I can always go back to the core, which is music. Would you say that you have lost that feeling of that version of you when you began or have you managed to keep that? Oh, no, I still have it. It’s still there. How did you keep it alive over the 15 years and the crazy ups and downs of being a Korean musician?
I think it’s because the concessions I did were never in the music. It was more about, I didn’t make a lot of concessions musically. I think if I would have left my sound behind and started doing stuff that was popular, I would have had more resentment towards the whole thing. I, the reason why I make up things like existential dance music and stuff is because
I think people need a some sort of a story to hold on to sometimes. It’s just the music. Everyone does. Yeah. And I think I’ve been pretty good at creating a narrative. remember when I first dropped Light, which is my biggest song, the best streaming song, I would say, and my shows with it, if you want to.
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If I don’t play that song, I’ll probably be dragged through the last scene. But after that song, was signed to a label and they just wanted me to do that. They wanted to release 10 songs that were like lights. that did not drive me, that did not motivate me. So I started doing...
different stuff. started incorporating guitar into EDM. It’s like, well, what if we have guitar now in EDM? Because now we have that platform where we, where I can introduce something new, but they didn’t, they didn’t like that. So I had to buy myself out of that deal. I had to pay money to do my own thing.
So I did. And that’s when album one came out and there was this hit song there was Lift Me From The Ground that really connected, which had a guitar thing. And I feel like that was a pivotal moment in my career where if I decided to go with what the major label wanted, I probably wouldn’t have been here today because I have to be authentic in my...
my music. So I think that’s how I’ve been able to still, you know, keep this going for so long. Being in the music industry for so long, most people don’t understand it. is there like a secret or a thing that you’ve come across that like was really shocking and surprising when you found it out? What people don’t understand is that
Having a hit is one thing, but doing this for a long time is another, it’s a whole different story. Especially now you can have a hit and then after a year, everyone’s forgotten about you, you know? So it’s about, it involves a certain connection that you need to make with people that is beyond the song. It’s not just a song, it’s you as.
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What do you stand for? What do you believe in? How do you make people feel for some reason? You know, when I do shows, I do, I take time to, to meet people. You know, I plan meeting greets, not so everyone can take pictures with me or, but to talk to people and to say, okay, what moves you and why are you here? And what to make people feel seen, you know, and, I enjoy doing that. I enjoy,
treating everyone like people, not just consumers of the music. I always say, I’m here because of you. And you might think you’re here because of me, but I’m literally here because of you. Because if you weren’t here, I wouldn’t be playing this show. If I wouldn’t sell tickets, I wouldn’t be here. there’s this... I’m very grateful. I’m genuinely grateful for everyone sending me a message after the show.
or buying a ticket or sharing a song online of mine. think every time I see that, it’s still so rare to me. I also know playing in front of a thousand people or 10,000 people is not gonna give me more happiness. It’s I’ve heard if you get a hundred thousand people, you’ll then be happy. That’s what I heard.
Yeah, well, no, it’s not true. just kidding. Yeah, it’s just not true. I know you’re a joke, but like it’s not, it’s, it’s, uh, I think it’s more like connection. You can feel that connection with a hundred people or with 10,000 people, but the connection, I don’t know how exactly, but I try to keep that alive in my music. Yeah. And I think whether I do a...
dubstep song or a rhythm song or a future based song. think people can hear me in it in a way. Maybe they can’t explain in words, but I hope they can feel it that I put my heart into that song. of putting your heart into a song, like it’s a really like energy intensive process of performing and being in the public eye and the meet and greets, especially for somebody who mentioned you were introverted.
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How do you go about giving that energy to the people that are there for you, but then also rebuilding and replenishing in the downtime? are some ideas and strategies around how you found to do that? Yeah. Introversion and extroversion is really interesting. Yeah. I’m so extroverted. Extremely. Yeah. If I could inspire everyone to just look, to think about that, if you’re watching this and you feel like
you’re drained at after two hours at a party, or you might feel like you’re like so energized after a party. know, look into it. Because because I always thought there was something wrong with me being like so tired after being at a party. didn’t I don’t like going to festivals. I don’t like going to clubs. I don’t like going to parties because after two hours, I’m done. I’m like exhausted and I can’t wait to go to sleep. I thought something was wrong with me, but it’s just
It’s just a introversion and some people get energy from that. get energy. So I get energy from going to a party and then going back home or going for a walk and processing everything that happened and putting that into the song or just thoughts. and, I think realizing that really helped me. There’s a great book. That’s called, it’s for introverts. It’s called quiet. I don’t know who wrote it, but it was a great book.
It talks about introversion and extroversion in specifically America. And the American culture is generally very extroverted. That’s probably why I love it so much. When you, when you, when I remember here being, if my managers set up a meeting and I have to introduce myself, I used to be like, I’m Sonder and I make music.
And they were like, hold up, hold hold up. Okay, well, this is San, although he played at the biggest festivals all around the globe. He’s got a gold record for We Rise, a gold record for Light, hit songs. And I’m like, whoa. So like, it’s a very, you have to.
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naturally kind of put yourself out there. Yeah. The book is Quiet, The Power of Introverts in a World That Can’t Stop Talking by Suzanne Kane. Yeah. It’s a great book. And I think both for introverts and extroverts, it’s a very, I think for introverts, it’s easier. This is a hot take. I’m not sure if I’m right, but this is what I think. I think for introverts, it’s easier to relate to extroverts because
we can learn how to flip on that switch. I’ve learned how to flip on the extrovert switch for a couple of hours and see, I can see what sparks excitement in people. And sometimes I talk to people, to extroverts that I know are extroverts and they say, I’m so introverted. after a night out, I’m so tired. I can’t wait to go to bed. But they completely miss a point of, you know, they are just.
They’re the light of the party the whole night. And of course everyone gets tired at some point. I think the world would be... I think we’d understand each other a lot better if we know about these concepts. These concepts were created by Carl Jung, a psychologist, famous. got Freud and Jung.
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And he basically coined extraversion and introversion and both have their strengths. It’s really beautiful, beautiful how we navigate the world differently in that sense. Yeah, so to answer your question, doing this is knowing and embracing that I am not the,
the craziest extroverted person who can be on stage and at parties and at after parties all the time. I’m going take a bath, you know? I’m going take a bath and sit in my quiet hotel room being lonely. And I love it sometimes. I love it. Yeah. That’s funny. I had a moment when I realized how extroverted I was. I did this thing called a Vipassana. It’s like a 10 day silent meditation. wow.
And I was depressed for the whole 10 days. I thought at some point I would be enlightened and feel happy and blissful, but no, I was just heavy. It was just heavy for 10 days. And the moment, the instant I started talking again, I felt this like intense wave of energy, like I’ve never felt before. I wasn’t even talking about anything useful or good. was just having a quick chat to the other people in the course. And I noticed, I noticed another like, wow.
So you did learn something. so much energy from the environment around me and I push it back out. So I just, I’m just like a hype machine. It just keeps building and building and building. But I dated a girl that was really introverted for a number of years. And I really appreciated the balance because I leaned so heavily onto like go, go, go, navigating social dynamics, maybe a little bit unthoughtful about like,
how I structure communication because I’m so comfortable in it and it can put more introverted people a little bit off. Absolutely. But after this retreat, do you understand her a little bit better now? Well, I learned how she approached and navigated the world and I watched it and I was, it was a very like soft and more nurturing approach and more like empathetic approach. So I was able to take on some of those qualities and began to listen.
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when she had advice on how I was navigating the world because I wasn’t seeing it the way she was seeing it. Very, very useful. But then on the flip side, I got a sofa out of her shell that she made a bunch of new friends. And she like said to me a number of times, like, I was in college, I’m in uni and I don’t really know anyone. Like, go talk to someone, just do it. And then I gave her the confidence to do it and then made a new friend. I was like, that’s a nice little balance between the two. It was cool.
That’s what I’m saying. It’s literally what saying. I think if we learn about those two, introversion and extroversion, introverts can feel more comfortable stepping up to people saying, hey, there’s nothing wrong with that. Because now we think, what are they going to think? Everything is inside of us. And extroverts can think, they might just be quiet because that’s their...
That’s how they process things. They’re not weird or awkward or quiet or not about it. They just have a different... Man, like growing up, we all imagine everyone is the same. Like we all imagine if we look at the sky, we see the same thing because it’s the sky. That’s what we know. And realizing that there’s...
vastly different ways to take in the world. You know, you’ve got extraversion, introversion, but you have so many other. You’ve got your history, you’ve got the way you’re raised, the way your parents raised you, your culture, all that stuff. I think it’s amazing that we can communicate with each other, being, you know, so different.
Everything plays into who you are and how you navigate the world. And that’s what, that’s my problem with these days, social media and media in general, just being like, this is what you have to do. there’s, think Rick Rubin said something about like, there’s nothing that works for everyone. There’s not a prescription prescription that you can just take. it’s like for everyone. This is my podcast. really like podcasts because it
Metwally — That One Time Podcast (01:03:44.322)
An hour or two with somebody, you begin to truly understand how they think about the world. But the danger with podcasts too, I’m not to bash on podcasts, but the danger is also that a podcast can seem like if you have a microphone in front of you and you say something, that it’s... Authoritative. It’s the truth. Because there’s a guy with a microphone in front of his face and a professional setup and you think, actually, yeah, that’s how I feel.
Just see, you have to, you know, this is one thing, but then listen to your heart. And like, you know, we might look really, really cool on camera right now, but I could just say like, you know, I could start saying McDonald’s is very healthy for you. Actually, McDonald’s is very healthy. If you eat five burgers a day, it’s proven to be really healthy for you. And that’s going to be a great clip. Out of context clip. Yeah, like it’s.
You could literally tell lies in a set up like this. Yeah, people do. And I’ve even caught myself looking at a podcast one time and someone was saying that and it’s feeling so like convincing because of this professional setup and lighting. looks like a news show, like watching the news. And I’m like, and I look it up later. I’m like, it’s completely false. Yeah, I’ve done that too. So, but I do like podcasts to...
jump on what you’re saying that you can get a deeper view and more nuanced look in someone’s life. Yeah, I mean, it’s important to, as you said, take everything with a grain of salt and be very, very careful and thoughtful about the media you consume. That’s why I’m like very torn on short form because you are not, there’s no thoughtfulness on the media you consume. It’s being fed to you. So I love YouTube and I love, you know,
emails and reading books much more because you choose. You have to have the intent to go to like YouTube more a lot. Yeah. Because of the length and the nuance and it’s intentionality. You’re looking at someone’s giving you a little entree of title and thumbnail and you go, this looks curious to me. Yeah. As opposed to slot machine media. That most of the time I consume media right now is on YouTube.
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at like looking at a one hour videos. There’s this channel. I don’t know the name. It’s this Dutch guy building a house in the Alps. I’ve seen that. So cool. Yeah. It’s just like literally minutes of the same shot and it’s so calming and so it’s fascinating. Isn’t it? I love it. You’ve seen it. You see the number of those type of videos called social media.
No, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a tough one because, you know, a lot of these podcasts as an example is optimized to get clips, but at the same time, the clips don’t represent what this is actually about. And it’s a, and it’s like, if I don’t do the clips, the podcast doesn’t grow. The podcast doesn’t grow. None of the long form even matters. None of this matters without the case, weird strategy that is not
Aligned. Let’s make a clip right now. I’m done with this shit. And thank you for coming. You can use that. It’s going to be good for the trailer. Like an explosion. Studio blows up, that’s so good. With all that being said, right?
We’ve got all of these different experiences as humans. And then we try and explain it in words. Going back to your, your, what you said before about how music’s much more impactful to develop a feeling. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s, it’s, it’s, and the coolest thing is that I don’t understand it and I love it. I love that. don’t want to get it. I think you do understand it. I just don’t, I don’t think you can explain it because I think anyone that actually does anything creatively.
and does it consistently understands the creativity and understands how to tap into that in their own unique way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe I understand the creative part of it. I still so fascinated how people can, how that can resonate with other people. How can I write something and then be like, yeah. Yeah. That’s so cool. So magical. It’s magical. It’s, it’s, I feel like it’s a,
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connection to people’s soul at end of the day. Like it’s coming out of you in a form that you are feeling and then it’s being amplified to somebody else in a form that only some people can feel as well. Yeah. It’s cool. I think I like that. That’s why I like to make music that might not be for the radio, for the masses.
But everyone connecting to it feels extra special to me that way. Cause they’re like, oh, I’m not doing the cookie cutter stuff. I’m doing kind of different stuff and you get it. So you kind of get me. I get you a little bit. And it’s this beautiful connection that I, that I, uh, man, it’s, there’s no bigger compliment than someone coming up to me and saying that song that you, you played or, know, I’ve been listening to that song and it really connects to me. And it’s just like, oh, that’s crazy because that came from a
weird place that I don’t understand myself, but I feel you, you feel me. That’s beautiful. I mean, I also, think about this a lot because I’m pretty broad in my interest and it’s really, it’s really tough to figure out the direction I take things and it’s decided if you’re, if you’re trying to be all things to everybody, end up being nothing to nobody. Yeah. Yeah. So it is very important. It is very true. And,
Music’s fun. It’s like, it’s interesting where you can, like I’ve, I’ve had experiences to say at a festival on a dance floor or something and I’m dancing with somebody. We don’t say a word. don’t, they don’t, they don’t even speak English. We don’t, we can’t communicate, but we still connect. And I’ve got like one moment that I think back to just on a, on a dance floor for like half an hour. I don’t know this person. Just me and this one, this one girl, we never say a word to each other and we just connect.
dance and then we’re like, okay, hey, it’s like, hey, can’t speak English. Okay. Goodbye. And that was it. But it was like, there was a genuine connection and it’s like etched into my brain. It’s still there. It’s still there. It’s been carried with you and it’s so real. Yeah. And maybe it’s even more. really been more. Most. Yeah. Maybe it’s even more beautiful than I’d ever have been. Yeah. Because it was just that moment. Yeah. You know, and that’s, that’s how, what I experienced sometimes traveling for show.
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morning after I do a show and I go to a coffee shop and you know, last weekend I was in Reno. This gambling town that’s called the smallest, biggest city in the world or something like that. The biggest, smallest city. don’t know. But after a show, I took a nap after the show and I went to get a coffee and I was just sitting there and I, and I saw people walk by.
on the street, doing their thing, going about their day. And I was like, I’m in Reno, in this middle of nowhere place, coffee shop, had a conversation with a barista. And no one but me knows this, but I was here for a moment. And I can carry that. still, I can still see it. that’s to, I guess I’m just a romantic. I just, you know, that stuff is real.
And I get inspiration from that stuff. Kind of reminded me of your dance with the stranger kind of thing. Beautiful. Yeah. So wrapping up, I’d love to ask if you could go back to the kid teaching guitar and learning guitar in the Netherlands and give you one piece of advice, what would it be? It’s just difficult. think people need to understand
get inspired by things, get inspired by words, by phrases, by music, by people, but don’t take them as the truth for you. Get inspired by it, build your own thing on it, take it as a...
Something you could grow from, something to hold on to it, you can grow on. But don’t see it as a truth. Don’t see it as your truth because your truth is... I don’t think your truth can ever be someone else’s truth. And I think that’s very dangerous when people start to see that... When people start to believe that there’s just one way. There’s only one way. Life is fluid by default. I think it’s very fluid. And... Sorry, this is not a simple...
Metwally — That One Time Podcast (01:13:19.134)
answer that you can clip into a but I’m just saying get inspired get curious and build your own truth build your build your own you know what is true to you
And,
Fuck the shit, man. I don’t know shit, man. Honestly, I don’t know shit. I don’t believe that for a second. think you know a bit. What do you think is one of the most beautiful things you’ve created? Some of my guitar work, I think, I dropped a song in the pandemic, a song, Holo, called In the End I Just Want You to Be Happy, which is not...
EDM song or a bass song. It’s a simple melody that goes like...
Metwally — That One Time Podcast (01:14:18.552)
Sorry, it’s been a long time.
Metwally — That One Time Podcast (01:14:25.358)
you
Metwally — That One Time Podcast (01:14:34.06)
There’s this, it’s a whole song, but, it’s, don’t know where that melody came from or I can’t even fully remember when or how I recorded it, but it was just suddenly there. and this, that sounds like a lie, but it’s not, can’t remember that the night I recorded that I can’t remember the night I recorded it. was just floating in my head and suddenly there was a recording of it and,
was not on drugs. was not drunk. It was just certainly there. And it’s called in the end, I just want you to be happy. And I think those melodies are, think guitar is like one of the guitar is the most genuine way for me to express myself. I can really get to the core on guitar. And I actually just released my first song, my side project called Saan, Saan 111.
That’s my side project. number one, don’t you? Yes. It’s song 111. And the song is called 111. I’m not lying. I know, that’s what I’m trying say. The song is called 111 and it’s like a melody.
Metwally — That One Time Podcast (01:16:00.27)
It’s just like a guitar song that I’ve been recording guitar songs for the last 10 years and never put them out. I feel like they carry a real emotion to them. And I never felt like the right time to put them out because Son Hollow was doing one. I I didn’t realize it will never be the right time. So I’m gonna start putting them out right now. Well, man, mean, like, if I think about it, my favorite song of all time is Stairway to Heaven. Got you, bro.
Metwally — That One Time Podcast (01:16:33.153)
Is that that? You need to get, you need to get, not slightly off. Hey, let me, Hey. I don’t remember the exact amount, but it’s like. Is it higher? No, I know.
Metwally — That One Time Podcast (01:16:50.29)
there we go. We’ve got an exclusive guitar song cover here. And then there’s this part that goes like... That’s all I know. The most beautiful part of song is that...
Metwally — That One Time Podcast (01:17:20.682)
So good. So, good. There it is. it is. Beautiful song. So, wrapping this up, if this is the last recording ever and all of your content you ever recorded, anything you ever did got deleted and had 60 seconds to leave a message for everyone listening, what would you say? No pressure. Oh my God. Well, I just want to say
It’s all love. Try to find grace for each other. Realize that none of us has the same experience here on this planet. Everyone experiences life differently. And try to keep that in mind.
Be kind to each other. Even if there is evil, try to see where that comes from. I believe no one is inherently evil or born evil. Keep that in mind. Try to think of someone as a newborn. I don’t know, it sounds really weird, but I just have a, I believe no one is evil.
I think we are, the world turns us into evil. And I think, you know, kindness and love will be the answer in the end always. And side chain your kicks to the base. Always.
I don’t know, man. That’s a lot of pressure to put it. You know, it’s all love. That’s what I want to say. It’s all love. Yeah. It’s all love. Sanda, sun hollow. Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate you, I’m sick. And if you enjoyed this episode, please go to YouTube. that one time with Adam Atwally. Click Subscribe, and I’ll see you next week.
