Charlene Giselle on Beating Work Addiction Without Killing Your Ambition
Success leaves scars. Here’s the sober path high achievers ignore.
I just sat down with Charlene Gisele.
Former Big Law litigator turned burnout coach and clinical hypnotherapist focused on recovery.
In this episode you’ll learn
The 5‑minute calendar rule that protects sleep and blocks late‑night work
The 3 D’s that flag you’re already burning out
Boundary scripts to defend focus without stalling your career
We dive into the details later in the conversation.
We unpack the brain changes at 17:32 and the sleep system at 57:18.
Timestamps
00:00 Intro
02:38 Work addiction defined and early roots
05:50 Psychology and childhood patterns that drive overwork
08:28 Burnout consequences you can’t ignore
11:08 Strategies for sustainable success
14:13 Relationships as accelerant—or antidote
16:32 Boundaries, self‑care, and the calendar rule
17:32 What burnout does to your brain
19:37 Ambition without burnout
22:18 Recovery playbook and relapse prevention
24:52 A decade of lessons and reframes
27:29 Motherhood, identity, and career
57:18 High‑performer sleep protocol and nervous system reset
1:10:22 Non‑negotiables and client boundaries
1:17:26 Burnout, fertility, and cold‑plunge caveats
1:22:11 The next chapter and where to find Charlene
1:24:16 Closing
Listen
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Here’s the full transcript:
Metwally — That One Time Podcast (00:00.151)
You once said work can act like a drug for high achievers. You don’t do anything else. It’s that plain and simple. I signed up for it. I wanted more work. I wanted more cases. I wanted more hours. I wanted less sleep. I once had a vacuum cleaner wake me up, poking me in the head because I had collapsed behind my desk. I wasn’t aware of the fact that I was a work addict. It’s not a sustainable path to success.
Something will go wrong. What was your history that led you to that point of burnout? You know, when I got into the intensive care unit, literally saw him have a stroke in front of me. You know, shit, my boss just died in front of me. It’s a wake up call. Is it possible to really achieve at the top 1 % level without this like unhealthy obsession? Well, it’s ****.
Metwally — That One Time Podcast (00:57.1)
Welcome to That One Time with Adam Metwally, the podcast bridging the gap between health, hustle and happiness. We’re at podcast for a while in Chelsea, New York City, and I’m with high performance coach, clinical hypnotherapist and former Big Law litigator now working in burnout prevention, Charlene Giselle. I’m so glad to be here. Thank you for coming on. So you once said work can act like a drug for high achievers. What belief directly explains how you go from being fueled by that drug
to having a more sober relationship with work and what would you do differently now you know how addictive it is? It’s a great question and perhaps to answer it I need to take a bit of a step back. It may be the first time that you or listeners are actually hearing the concept of work addiction. Suddenly, about a decade ago, I suddenly wasn’t aware of the fact that I was a work addict. It was through recovery and work rehab, if you may want to call it that.
that I discovered that I had such an addictive personality. And what’s particularly interesting about work addiction is unlike and very uniquely compared to other substances like drugs or like alcohol, it’s not really a substance that is actually easy to avoid. So for example, it’s actually a substance that is promoted or even actually a client by society.
So if you are at a networking event with John and you know that John is a recovered former alcoholic, you are going to have the social decency not to offer John drink or to understand if he doesn’t want to have one. But let’s say you’re now at a networking event with Caroline and she’s talking about getting her next promotion or her next big bonus. You are.
going to encourage her to have that next promotion or that next big bonus. Little do you know that perhaps Caroline is a recovered or former workaholic. So it’s important to understand that work addiction stems from a desire of recognition, often a bruised self-esteem that can be a source or explained by young
Metwally — That One Time Podcast (03:17.878)
childhood trauma, particularly the kind of trauma that you would have experienced between the age of zero to seven. And especially if it’s a big T trauma, right? So we have big T traumas, small T traumas. It’s very common to see amongst high performers who’ve developed a work addiction, some kind of trauma happening in their childhood. What’s an example of a trauma leading to work addiction? I’ve never heard that before. So
Parents divorcing is very, common. Why would that lead to somebody being addicted to work later on in their life? Because if you formed a belief that mommy and daddy didn’t love you enough or didn’t love each other enough and that at one point when you were with daddy or when you were with mommy and you were in split custody, you felt unloved or abandoned or not given enough attention to, they may have been a part of you.
that would have looked for something else, be it another authority, be it the market, the law firm, the trading floor, to give you that kind of love through work and recognition. So in other words, you form a belief that your ego, your status will be growing when you grow professionally because you haven’t received the love you wanted to receive from mommy or from daddy. So that’s a very common example. And I’m not speaking of it from a place of
Is it right or is it wrong? I’m speaking of it from a place of patterns, facts and data. Having coached and worked with high performers for years and years and years, I’ve seen that pattern being very, very common. Another very common one is being bullied at school. So perhaps you were one of the kids that was a little chubbier or you were bullied because you had a different hair color or you had a different skin color or you come from a different background, right? Any kind of reason.
which is never a good reason to bully a child. There is never a valid reason ever to bully a child. But if you’ve been at the receiving end of that bullying, that can actually create a trauma whereby you believe that to be worthy of peers’ attention and to attract friends, you need to be the one who is filled the gap. Right? So often, particularly for young boys, that would translate in, I will be...
Metwally — That One Time Podcast (05:40.78)
the one that makes the most amount of money because then I’ll be respected. I’ve had a lot of men and this is really interesting psychologically who were often the shortest in school. So not particularly tall men who formed a trauma around that because they were bullied for not being very tall. And those are men that then made a shit ton of money to prove that they had higher status. it’s perfect. It makes perfect sense from a psychology books.
It works. Of course it does. to get them a girl that would probably be out of their league and gets them to show off at a club and buy the cars. Listen, the math are correct, right? Absolutely. works. But does it forms residual trauma whereby you believe that your worth equates your paycheck? Well, if that’s the belief that you form and you reinforce that belief by finding a spouse or a partner,
that sees your worth through your paycheck, you might be in trouble. Because then you need to provide, provide and make so much money because that’s how you show and display your worth. But what happens when you get sacked, when your company goes under or when you lose your power through losing money? You commit suicide, you despair, you have a heart attack, you get a divorce, right?
something quite insidious can actually lead to catastrophic results, even with the greatest intentions. So you spoke about your own history of burnout. So tying those two threads of work addiction, potential trauma, what was your history that led you to that point of burnout? My sense of love being tied into
My worthiness at school. So from the youngest age, I believe and I really want to highlight I believe. So that’s not a fact. That’s a belief. That’s subjective belief. I believe that my dad, especially loved me more when I was the best at school, when I had the best grades, when I was the good girl. And for him to look at me as a good girl, I had to in my mind.
Metwally — That One Time Podcast (08:03.331)
be the brightest, the smartest, the fastest, the one with the best grades. So very early I formed a belief that the more I worked, the more daddy loved me. And that was very tied into how much of a high performer he was. He was a very career driven man, very sort of status seeking in terms of providing for the family. So again, very well intentioned, the kind of man that does it out of love for his...
wife, my mother and his children, my siblings. But again, with the best intentions, you can sometimes create negative or toxic results. And it took me years, decades in fact, to understand that my dad loved me even if I failed professionally. And the only time I learned that is when I quit law and I quit being a high powered attorney.
which was what I thought would be the pinnacle of his love for me. And he continued to love me. But I really had to learn that lesson. So a relationship with a parent can be very formative or very destructive, even when that relationship is excellent. So my father and I have a very, very, very close relationship, but even the best of a relationship can bring out the...
most catastrophic results, So that’s important to highlight. And what is being reinforced, you know, in school, I was good, that was one thing that I was good at. So very early on, I learned that what I’m good at, I want more of because I love the attention. So I loved being a good grade A student. Comparatively, when my parents signed me up for ballet, for example, I was a disaster.
I was the kind of little girl that would have broken a leg if she continued to the ballet any longer. I was not good. I know you’re not supposed to say a child is not good at anything, but really I was not good. It’s that plain simple. And so the reason this story is relevant is very early on I formed a belief that I suck at physical activities. I’m not good at ballet. Therefore I’m not good with my body, but I’m good with my mind. I’m good with my brain. I retain information fast.
Metwally — That One Time Podcast (10:28.332)
I’m good at working, I’m good at my desk, I’m good at learning languages. That’s what I’m good at. And that’s all the eggs I’m gonna put in one basket because I love the feeling of being rewarded for what I’m good at. And so I pushed away very quickly anything that I didn’t feel I couldn’t be the best at. I was very competitive. And then I formed a belief which I carried on through my years of being an attorney that my body didn’t matter.
my body was a tool that I used to carry my brain from one meeting to another, right? That was my perception. My body was an inconvenience, not something that needed attention and not something that I was getting paid for, right? I know it sounds funny, but that was my belief. It’s not rational and it’s spoken now with the words of someone who A has gotten.
you know, psychology certification and did years of therapy and coaching so I can psychoanalyze my own traits and patterns. Of course, that’s not what I believed at the time. I didn’t have this conscious belief. It was an unconscious belief. But when I look at high performers that neglect their body, use drugs, use alcohol to numb, soothe and escape, we actually would do just about anything to bring ourselves up in the morning. Stimulants, cocaine, alcohol.
well not alcohol, but anything that would bring you up and then at night we would use just about anything to put you down, so to numb you. And that would be alcohol, that would be any painkillers, any pills to put you to sleep. You’re constantly looking for a way to bring yourself up, bring yourself down and that’s very common.
among high performers. And if you’re not using Class A drugs, it could be that you’re using prescription and abusing prescription. a lot of my clients use Adderall, even though they don’t have diagnosed ADHD, they use it because they want this stimulating effect to do more work, to stay up at night. Right? So I also learned those behavior or reinforce those behavior when I went to law school, because I very quickly learned that I don’t get
Metwally — That One Time Podcast (12:46.53)
really good grades when I sleep, which was actually a mistake and a very bad belief to hold. But I learned instead that I get good grades when I don’t sleep and study all night in the library and take whatever I need to take to stay up and perform the following day. So again, I played the game of how little can I sleep to squeeze in as much study as possible. When you have that mindset going to universities like, you know, Oxbridge or Harvard or Princeton,
that kind of elitist university, there is a real risk that you will bring that mindset to work because it got you the grades and actually got you to those universities. So you see how this mindset is one that you carry through life. So would you say it’s possible to achieve at these high levels if everyone else is on stimulants and you are not though? Because it seems like it takes, it took a certain level of work.
to get to the next stage, which then the expectation is set that that’s the baseline and everyone around you is doing the exact same thing. And then you keep growing up the ladder with that level of intensity. And the moment you stop, you’re done. Yes. I would say not only is it possible, but it’s actually the only way. So the way I did it is not the way to do it. In other words,
That way is the guaranteed highway to burnout, mental breakdown, physical breakdown. It’s not a sustainable path to success. Something will go wrong. You can’t take more stimulants forever. You can’t take more sedatives forever. That method has a very short shelf life. If you’re lucky and you’re a unicorn, maybe you can get away with it for a few decades. Some rock stars do.
Clearly I’m not a rock star. had a shelf life. But it’s got a shelf life. There will be a time where your health pays the price. You’ll have that diagnosis. You’ll have that crisis. You’ll have the spouse, the girlfriend, the boyfriend that gets annoyed and doesn’t want to be part of that lifestyle. So it’s not a guaranteed path to the top. And just because your peers do it, certainly don’t make it right.
Metwally — That One Time Podcast (15:11.542)
really hard to learn that lesson without catastrophic happening. And I genuinely believe that it wasn’t for the fact that I went through a really nasty divorce. I totally burnt out. I found myself alone, isolated and unable to continue to do the one thing that I love to do more than anything else, which was work. I would not have the clarity that I have now. I had to learn my blind spots and I had many. Okay. So
What is an alternative solution then for somebody working in, let’s use your example, as Big Law? Because I know quite a few people that are friends of mine that are in Big Law, and they get completely destroyed. Yes. And they’re young, and they’re intelligent, and they’re hardworking. it seems as though if they turned around to their boss and said, no, I’m not doing that, it’s like, well, see you later. We’ve got 20 people out the door that are ready to jump into your spot.
Yeah, it’s really tough. It’s really tough. One of the first week I had working, I worked 110 hours. That’s insane. I’ve never worked that in my life. But then you normalize it. 110 hours. Yeah, do the math. It’s scary. I know that doesn’t seem possible. do you even do that? I’ve always heard these crazy numbers. I can tell you how you do that. Trust me. 15 hours a day.
Seven days a week, that for seven days. You don’t do anything else. It’s that plain and simple. I’ll tell you the secret. I’ll tell you the hack of it. So you mostly don’t do things that are not absolutely necessary. So sleep, you forego at least one or two nights during that week. So we call those all nighters. I once had a vacuum cleaner wake me up by poking me in the head because I had collapsed behind my desk.
and my cleaning lady in my office hadn’t seen me and like was vacuuming my office floor and like kind of poked me in the head because she didn’t know I had collapsed behind the desk. But that’s normal. mean, not with it. Let me rephrase that. That’s not normal, but that was my normal. That’s accepted. That’s acceptable in a workplace like that. That’s what we do to do what we do.
Metwally — That One Time Podcast (17:32.248)
See, that just doesn’t make sense to me. Like it just, I hear that and I, my brain just goes, question mark, question mark. Do you, do you.
have an effective output? Of course you don’t. You think you do. So what are you doing? It doesn’t make rational sense. Adam, in that moment, you’re not being rational. And that’s another thing to highlight. When you’re burning out, your brain chemistry actually changes. Not only your brain chemistry, but your brain physically is altered. So what we know now from the field of neuroscience is when professionals are going through burnout, their brain changes.
The prefrontal cortex gets thinner and thinner. Your hippocampus gets smaller and smaller. Well, to be more precise, the gray matter gets sort of shrinks. So when you’re undergoing those kinds of brain alteration, you’re not really making the most rational decision. You’re in survival mode. Why did I do that? Because I thought there was no other way. I cared about that job more than words can say. I...
thought that my boss at the time was some kind of God. I know that doesn’t sound healthy, but I really did. He was my God. My workers were my religion and my clients files were my Bible. And every morning and every night I said, amen. That was how I felt about it. And there is no one I can blame for that.
It’s not that anyone forced me to work that way. And that’s actually why I have the most amazing relationship with my former colleagues, former partners and former law firms that work out. I genuinely do not blame them. I do not because I never felt under sort of threat or duress to work the way I did. I signed up for it. If there was ever an opportunity to say who wants to take on the next file?
Metwally — That One Time Podcast (19:36.206)
I was the first one to put my heads up and my hands up, right? I wanted more work. I wanted more cases. I wanted more hours. I wanted less sleep. I even liked the all-nighters that you’re not supposed to like. It’s a bit like, when have you ever met a drug addict who said no to a cheaper, better, faster drug dealer? Why would you say no? Give me the number.
Yeah, yeah, interesting. You’re saying he’s faster, cheaper and he’s get better drug? Yeah. Yeah. Bring me on. Sign me up. OK, interesting. Yeah, because I hear that and I go, I would never. just like there’s nothing that fires me up to a point where I would not prioritize sleeping because I like how my brain works when I’ve slept enough. Amazing. But what I’m hearing is you’re not an addict. Well, yeah, I guess I’ve never thought of it that way. I’m like, it’s like asking a person.
who becomes aggressive, abusive to their wife, to their spouse, to their children through alcohol and be like, why, why in your rational self would you ever be that drunk person who hurts, who snaps, who... If you had that conversation, what they do, the behavior, they’re not rational. They’re a net consequence of the addiction. You can’t have a rational conversation with an irrational behavior.
that is actually driven by a substance addiction. By definition, that behavior is not rational. You’re looking, desperately looking to escape, to numb a feeling. So, was I in my right mind? Absolutely fucking not, right? But that’s the whole point. And that’s why I say you have to treat it like work addiction, like addiction, because you...
are at that point an addict. The plain definition, many definition for addiction, but my definition is you would do that thing and use that thing, whatever the consequences, to feel anything but the thing you’re trying to avoid feeling. And my drug of choice was work. It made me feel great. I loved the look in my client’s eyes when I could show up and be the best lawyer there could be.
Metwally — That One Time Podcast (22:01.076)
I loved the paycheck at the end of the month. I loved the flat and the lifestyle that it gave me. I loved the intellectual challenges. I loved some really noble things about it. I loved serving my clients at the deepest level and feeling useful. So it’s not just the greed and the vanity. There was some genuine, really good intention. I loved feeling helpful and smart and intelligent and praised and knowing that I could contribute positively.
to a file, it really gave me a sense of satisfaction and fulfillment. you know, the intention again, be very careful in life with a good intention because sometimes good intention can lead to catastrophic results. What is it? The road to hell is paved with good intentions? Like, right. Okay. Well, you decided to become a lawyer to do good in the world, but then you become a work addict. Is that serving you? Is that serving people that...
love you? Are you being the best friend? Are you being the best wife? Are you being the best daughter in that moment when you’re being poked in the face by a vacuum cleaner? Hell no, you’re not. Yeah, mean, I think hearing that, I probably, haven’t ever had a working project that has made me, I’ve been so obsessed with that I will destroy everything else in the process. I think that’s the difference. You hear those stories of, you know,
the founders of these great companies and they’ve all got a very common thing where they just worked relentlessly on this one thing for a very long time. Maybe I just haven’t found the one thing that gets me so fired up to the point where it’s an addiction. I just enjoy life and I don’t think that’s the goal to thrive for. Is it possible to really achieve at the top 1 % level without this like unhealthy obsession?
Well, it’s an interesting question and I like to believe that I actually do better quality work now. Still a huge amount though. I didn’t change my capacity for a very big workload, but I don’t destroy my health in the process. success leaves cues, right? That’s what everybody says.
Metwally — That One Time Podcast (24:30.018)
but success also leaves marks, scars and consequences. So in my line of work, certainly there are three D’s that I encounter daily. First one is divorce or the thread off. If you are in a married relationship, your spouse just can’t stand the way you work because they feel that at best they’re your lover.
because your first spouse, your husband or your wife is your work. My primary relationship was my work. So that doesn’t leave a lot of space for a marriage. Not 110 hours a week. No, at best, like I said, they’re a side dish, They’re definitely not the main course. Then there is diagnosis or disease, very common, and that can be in the form of
depression, can be in the form of a heart attack, a stroke. It can be also a little bit less dramatic, but still very, very impactful, like constant weight gain, your gain, skin rashes, back pain, neck pain, dry eyes, insomnia, losing hair, losing hair, biting nails, constantly having to go seek doctors for phantom conditions, allergies, intolerances.
Those are also telltale signs that you could be burning out. then the systemic inflammation. Exactly. Exactly. You’re spot on. And then the third one, which is very morbid, but it’s so true is D for death, right? It’s not uncommon that I get a call a bit like my friend calling me saying, you know, shit, my boss just died in front of me where it’s a wake up call.
For me, it was my father’s near death. So he survived his heart attack. But you know, when I got into the intensive care unit and literally saw him have a stroke in front of me, I a whole face, you know, for anyone who’s witnessed a stroke and I hope you haven’t, it’s quite a traumatizing experience to see someone you love that much goes through a stroke. His whole face, it’s a very, it’s a very weird thing to describe with the right words, but...
Metwally — That One Time Podcast (26:52.098)
I can’t think of anything other than someone’s face sliding to one side, like all the muscles sort of disappear and just everything hangs on one side only. It was just the most horrifying sight because I thought he was dying in that moment. But at the same time, I’m so grateful because if it wasn’t for that, I’m not sure I would have snapped out of it. Like sometimes it takes those life or death moment in life to realize that you’re one decision away from a different lifestyle.
And so I realized that I had some serious work to do and that if I wasn’t changing my ways, that was me in the future. Yeah. Well, once you hit that point of inflection,
How long ago was that? gosh, that would have been nearly 10 years now. Yes, a decade ago. OK, so if you can.
package up the last 10 years of lessons, techniques and habits.
Metwally — That One Time Podcast (27:59.33)
What would that look like that got you to approach this in a better way? First is know your pattern. knowing and understanding that I have an addictive personalities and I know that will trigger a lot of people because some don’t like this word. What’s the definition of addictive personality in your mind? Being very prone and seduced by the use and abuse of a substance of any kind to make you feel another way, particularly when you want to.
avoid the feeling of be sadness, fear, anger, guilt, the most common human emotions. So what feeling were you running away from? Fear of not being loved enough. By who? Mostly my father. Okay. But just at that point, people in general, the fear of not being enough, again, it’s not a particularly rational fear.
So your client would be a proxy for your father basically? Absolutely, every single one of them. Interesting. Every single one of them. And it’s no coincidence that I started my career working mostly with men because I had very male dominant traits in my personality and in many ways I was a woman that behaved like a man. Yeah, I mean I have a theory on this that a lot of big corporate environments are very masculine so for women to be
successful in those environments, they have to act masculine. It’s just a natural progression of these. Yeah, I’m not sure that’s conducive to sustainable success. not, no, it’s not. It takes you, it takes, let’s just say you’re a feminine woman and you’re forced into this mold that isn’t really how you want to be. That will burn you out as well. Just playing, playing that mask, having that mask on will also burn you out. Absolutely.
And the burden, and I know this is a very tough word to use, and if anybody screams at me using that word, I’m just going to qualify it by saying, it’s what I felt, not what it is. So don’t scream. It’s my honest opinion. But what I perceived at the time as the burden of having to be a woman. What do mean? Well,
Metwally — That One Time Podcast (30:22.966)
at least in our world currently, I’m sure science and technology will change that imminently, but I remember in my 20s feeling the burden of being a woman because I was married and I felt the pressure of having to be the one who would carry a child and therefore not be able to work for a period of time. And that would mean slow down my career or my path to success. And that felt, and again,
I don’t mean to trigger anyone, but that felt to me like a burden. I would have loved to not be in that position. I remember thinking, I wish I were a man, because at least I wouldn’t have to deal with that shit. That’s... Well, it makes sense. It’s not rational, it’s not right, but it’s how I felt. When a lot of friends or acquaintances at this time or juncture of my life were dreaming about
getting pregnant, I was dreaming about getting promoted and I couldn’t really relate. And then what’s interesting is actually when you get to fully embrace how powerful it is to be a woman and you fall in love with the feminine and subtle nuances of how rounded that can make you as a professional and particularly in my role as a coach and the hypnotherapist, I believe that I found a path that was much more nuanced where
I could, yes, be in my power and jetically and really aligned with my instincts and my female sensitivities and my more subtle emotions. It was no longer a burden, but it was actually an asset. was an edge, maybe even a competitive edge, right? Which could be actually used to the benefit of the clients that I served. And when you fully accept who you are not,
work against who you are. Interestingly, my father always said that he wanted a son when he had me. I say that from a young age. Yeah. But not in a way that made me feel less wanted by him, but I could sense it. And I tried to be that son in many ways. And again, this is not a blame. know, we’re extremely close and parenting is, you know, it’s magic and you do the best you have with the tool, you know, right? So
Metwally — That One Time Podcast (32:49.582)
I’m so grateful for the tools that he had, those were the tools that he had, but I tried to be the son he didn’t have. well, you know, now I am the daughter that he loves and we both learned that that’s enough. So you mentioned patterns as the first thing to understand in the last 10 years, what else have you got? It’s been helpful.
Not trust yourself. So a little bit. I need to have systems in place, very solid bulletproof system to buffer me against my own habits and patterns. like, and I love to take the metaphor and the comparison of an alcoholic because I think they’re very well known and understood. It’s interesting metaphor. I’ve never thought of it that way. So for anyone who may have gone through AA or rehab or 12 steps with alcohol, you may know or maybe not. So I will explain that.
distance, physical and emotional distance from the substance is very, important, especially in the recovery phase. First, there is the rehab, which is we remove the substance, and then there is recovery, which is reintegration into society with potential exposure to the substance. And for the recovery, not just the rehab to be successful, it’s important, especially in the first few months or weeks to have
exposure that is limited. it would not be recommended to leave unattended bottles of your favorite, favorite whiskey or wine in the house. It may seem obvious, but it’s a good example. In my world, how does that translate? It is not recommended to leave me with an unlimited wifi router and unlimited access to my laptop because I’ll fucking work to death. I will.
I know it sounds hilarious, but I’ll sneak it in. I’ll sneak it in. In the closet. No, I have done it. I’ve hidden to work. I’ve hidden bathrooms. I’ve hidden places to sneak in one more email. I’ve lied about working, pretending to be doing something else. I’ve lied about going to the office, saying that I was going to meet a friend.
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Right? Those are typical traits. So what do I do? I don’t trust myself. have a system and one of the quick practical step that I take is diarising. So because I work with multiple time zones and I serve globally, have clients at any given time in Singapore, Sydney,
New York, Paris, London, theoretically, I could work all the time. I understand that from the Australian and American times. I’m about to go to bed and then the Australians are waking up. How do I make sure I don’t burn out again? Because if you’re prone to burn out, you are likely to burn out again. So again, there is burnout recovery, which is phase one. It’s the intervention. And then there is burnout prevention, which is making sure you don’t burn out again. So what do I do? I literally...
put sleep in my diary and it says in bracket, do not delete exclamation mark, exclamation mark, exclamation mark. Because I know that that would be the first thing that I would choose to sacrifice to fit in more work. So it may sound like a very small boundary, but actually it’s a very, very solid one because it blocks my online calendar. So my clients cannot book me when I’m sleeping.
It also stops my assistant from offering me into a meeting when she knows I’m sleeping. And it’s the one thing that can’t be moved. Other things she knows I’m flexible, like color code, different systems, so things can move, but sleep cannot move. Movement, which I was very prone to sacrifice, didn’t do for years and years and years. Throughout the years I’ve become a runner, I also put in my diary because I know that I’m very prone to not do it. I did things such as
putting my running shoes in front of my coffee machine. Literally, like you could not get to the coffee unless you tripped on the shoes, just so that I would put my shoes on to go for my run, because I knew I would always want the coffee, but I would not always want the run. So those are little tips and tricks when you know not to trust yourself to actually have sustainable habits. Yeah, this is what my calendar looked like. I love it.
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I spend every Sunday blocking off, like I’ll plan out my week. It’s not exact, but it’s an ideal system of what I want to achieve and whether I can actually do it in the week that I have. It’s something that’s become really apparent as I overcommit. Because you look at it and you’re like, shit. And it’s so tempting. How am I meant to do all of this? Well, I can’t. You can’t.
I’ll tell you a funny story. I don’t know if it’s funny or sad. I’ll let you be the judge. I love it. Everything’s funny. When I first met my now husband, I told him that if we were going on dates, I will send him a diary.
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I love it. At first, I know it’s a bit intense, right? You’re just like, wow, really? Like a calendar invite for a date? But it makes total sense. The reason why is if you want me to show up and treat it with the level of importance that I want to treat it with, which is top importance, same level of importance as my biggest, most important client, I need it to be in my diary. So.
For anyone listening, if you had a meeting with Jay or Katrina and Jay and Katrina are your best, most important client, would you leave it to chance? Would you say, yeah, maybe at 10 a.m. on Tuesday, I’m going to show up for Katrina? Of course not. You would diarise it. You would find out if she wants it to be a team, Zoom, where you meet, what time you meet, how you meet, what’s the agenda, how long is the meeting, right? It sounds...
Obvious. Do you do the same for your dates, your girlfriend, your boyfriend, your husband and your wife? Yeah. My girlfriends in the past have learned to put time in my diary. It’s funny. also, I go on a date with somebody, even if it’s a first date, I have this little joke where I’ll put it in the calendar and I’ll be like, what’s your email? What’s for? I just get this calendar invite. I think as a guy, it’s easier.
for a girl to find it endearing. But I think a girl to a guy might be a little bit like, it’s not as common. At least you know what you’re getting up to. yeah, that’s right. I mean, I’ve found with girls that are great, this guy’s organized and he’s actually put me in the diary. So it’s very, it shows some like leadership. So yeah, I find it hilarious. With a woman you get more of a...
control. It’s like, Whoa, maybe a little bit, but that’s, but that’s okay. You know, it’ll, it’ll balances out between. It’s okay. I’m a control freak. Your husband. I met your husband on, on Friday and he’s got the twinkle in his eye. That doesn’t surprise me that you guys met at a yoga retreat. He’s the wise and grounded. I can see that. I can see that now. We definitely learn. Well, I learn.
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Through him. He’s probably learnt a lot through you too, don’t he? I learned balance from him and with him and integration and just pace, you know, I can be a little bit intense. Sure. And he’s very composed, very calm, very grounded. And that’s really the type of energy that I needed in my life. So, yeah. Nice. So systems, what else? Relationship.
I certainly don’t mean to say that I have magic born and found the perfect pairing solution hardly, but I can tell you that I’ve made pretty large mistakes in the past. And because of my role, I’m privy to the most intimate conversations and the biggest secrets. So as a clinical hypnotherapist in particular, especially during a trance state,
when you’re not really speaking with your conscious mind, but your subconscious mind, you just open up and you’d have less filter, less intellectual filter. And so there is an incredible amount of intimacy and trust and connection that happens during those sessions. And my clients tell me the most sincere, but also dark, intimate details of their relationship, their heart, their heads, things they
couldn’t really confide into even to a friend or even to a best friend just because of the fear, right? Of the judgment or the consequences. So that gives me a good sense of sort of psychological understanding of what works and what doesn’t in terms of relationship and a little bit of a secret hack maybe if you are prone to addiction of any kind.
Choosing the right partner is about the most important decision that you can make in your life. I previously married someone who was an enabler and I was an enabler for him too. There was a lot of toxic attachment and we both fueled our different addictions. So what’s the right partner look like? Ideally a partner
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that you can be brutally honest with. One of the things that was most refreshing but also most vulnerable was being able to really show my dark side to my partner. And even at times when I thought I’m definitely going to lose him if he knows how messed up I’ve been with my choices and decision.
The moment I knew that I had been honest enough when he sent me an email after a long conversation and told me afterwards that there were a lot of red flags. And I was like, yeah, I know I’ve done a good job sharing those. And he had thought about them, processed them. And here were all the rational reasons why.
there were so many green flags for us to be a good pairing. And knowing that he knew all my red flags, but he also knew how to turn them green in a way for us to find the balance as a couple was not me trying to not be me. I mean, think if you go into the relationship, hoping the person will change for you or that you will make them change, you might as well not even try because it’s going to lead to a catastrophic result.
But if you go in knowing as much as you can from that person, knowing their best and their worst and know that with all that you can give and all that you have to offer, they can be balanced in harmony between the two of you. That’s good. Great. Relationships, what else? Is there anything else on that list that you’ve learned? Yes. What about tactically? Tactically, I would say.
You have to really make sure that you work in an environment that is setting you up for success. What do I mean by that? We are creatures that love to mimic. So if you are prone to any kind of addictions again, and you surround yourself with someone who has the same kind as you, you’re in trouble. What do I mean by that explicitly? If you have a boss who is also a work addict,
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it’s going to be very, very challenging for you not to be enabled by that boss and enable that boss’s addiction. Right? I was very much in that scenario. There’s a really good book around memetic desire called Wanting by Luke Burgess. I haven’t read it. Fascinating book. But I think that’s a really good. Fascinating book. But continue. Yeah. No, that reminds me to put it on my to read.
It’s the second time that’s being referred to when I speak and usually that’s a sign. First time is a coincidence, second time I’ve got to read that book. So thank you. For sure. So what about some general strategies around avoiding burnout or coming back off the brink if you don’t have an option of quitting your job or taking some time? So again,
just want to reiterate, you really do not have to quit your job. I think that’s important. So you didn’t have to quit your job in Big Law to come back from... Well, I had to go to rehab, work rehab, and my rehab was leaving that behind to do something so totally entirely different like yoga and meditation. But it’s not necessary in all cases and instances. I’ve worked with...
professionals that found that within a three month period of moderate exposure to work, they could reset their ways. It depends on how deeply rooted your level of addiction is and what is your intention with how you’re going to work. It also depends how healthy the environment you work in is. Like I said, who’s your boss or who do you work with if you’re the boss or if you’re the founder, if you’re an entrepreneur, if you’re the CEO.
And you surround yourself with a team of Taipei workaholic. You’re again fostering an environment where that is bound to happen. I would say just understanding that no matter what you do, and I know we all come from different walks of life, perhaps a useful advice for burnout prevention is we are all traders. Whatever you do.
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You’re a trader, whether you know it or not. And we all trade one thing for another. Every day, constantly, multiple times a day. And that’s great.
I need you to reflect on what you’re trading in and what you’re trading it in for. And if you’re absolutely okay with that trade, knowing all the consequences of that trade, keep trading. If however, you had never asked yourself that question and you begin to realize through this question that you’re trading in your marriage for money, you’re trading in your health for bonus.
bonuses. You’re trading in your mental peace of mind for recognition, awards and status. Just pose, reflect and ask yourself what could be a better trade. And it’s not a question of quitting it all, changing your ways and not being ambitious because it’s a question I often ask, can you be ambitious and successful without burnout? Of course, absolutely. You can.
You just have to know your traits. Before we wrap up on this segment, I want to get an understanding of your ideal tools and daily schedule while performing at a high level. What does that look like? They are not particularly sexy or glamorous and they’re actually extremely simple, but they work. So I believe in small...
bulletproof and also sort of foolproof system. So I like small doses of things that I do regularly because I’m very, very attracted by drastic changes and I’ve made a lot of those in my life. But I’ve learned that small nuances and integration is key. giving you an example, seeking to save time at all costs, used to...
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taxi everywhere because one of my favorite thing would be like throw money at a problem, right? but actually what I’ve learned is being strategic about which meeting I could go to walking sounds so simple, which meeting, right? It’s just such a low hanging fruit, right? So actually taking a moment. It’s funny because when I was an attorney, I, I lived in London and it’s only now that I don’t live in London anymore.
but I still work in London and I do my meetings through walking that I’ve learned to discover London because I used to just do taxis or whatever was the fastest way of transportation. And now I think strategically, how can I combine my high performance with my wellbeing? It’s a notion of and. So I also replaced some of the very unhelpful mindset of cramming in last minute.
staying all night to prepare for a meeting and instead telling myself, the best way I can prepare for a meeting is going to bed early, which was so hard for me to learn. I used to get a kick out of saying I’m a night owl. I don’t need a lot of sleep. You know, I stay up late and learning that actually it’s really nice to wake up early and hit the gym and go for a walk and start my day slow. But if you are
the kind of person who is a bit of an adrenaline junkie and loves the thrill. You love the last minute drama of doing things late at night because it gives you that, right? So having to unlearn that, that it was actually not very good for my nervous system and replace my fuel. Like my primary fuel used to be chronic stress. And now my primary fuel is wellbeing. Like I fuel my success with wellness.
That’s the foundation upon which I can stack up everything else. May sound like a small shift, but I think it’s the greatest shift of all. Just switch your fuel. Not to sound too green piece, but it is much more sustainable to have self care and wellbeing as a fuel rather than chronic stress, adrenaline, cortisol. Any other tactics you like through your daily habits? Stay well in terms of your physiology. So your physiology is so important.
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on really incredible how many high performers I work with who are dehydrated. And I’m not talking just water, the quality of the water, your electrolytes, your magnesium, your salt. Good, right on cue. Making sure that you eat properly. I used to, know, snack on the go constantly or eat out of wrapped plastic bars.
Now I’ll be a little bit more intentional. I will sit down and savor my meal and actually choose wisely as opposed to just wolf down my meal. So fueling your body strategically, being very intentional and using tools or recreational tools such as alcohol, which I believe can be a tool as more of a celebration and a joyful moment rather than, you know, how
rough was my day, how big is my Chardonnay, right? That used to be my mindset, something that would allow me to escape rather than nowadays. I come from Bordeaux, I love a glass of wine. I probably always will. And I use always very, very occasionally. But I do it in a way that is rather celebratory or special or with...
my friends or to celebrate a unique moment, not to numb or escape from the dooms and glooms of another day in the office. And then also really watch out for the things that you do to switch off. used to rely on a huge amount of unhealthy things to switch off when actually you can make very simple, powerful switches that don’t have to be really dramatic. So quick example.
I’m sure a lot of women will relate. are in New York City after all. I was totally obsessed by shows like Sex and the City and there is nothing wrong with that. I still love the show. It’s a silly example, but I think it’s powerful. But I used to, if I worked really, really late, I will binge, literally binge watch series, even though it was already 2 a.m. and I would need to be up and...
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going and I know a lot of people can relate to this. It’s incredible the amount of high performers that I meet who tell me, I don’t have time for this. I don’t have time for the gym. I don’t have time to work out. I don’t have time to do this. I don’t have time to do that. And then you talk about Netflix and you talk about the latest series and they’re like, yeah. Have you watched season three? And you’re like, but you’re the same person who didn’t have time for the gym, but you have time to binge watch shows, right? It’s a soothing mechanism.
I did it. I did it for years. And again, I’m not saying it’s bad to watch Netflix or to watch Sex and the City. I love it. It’s a treat. I still love the show till these days, but I watch it intentionally in a setting that is really fueling my wellbeing. It makes me laugh. It gives me a giggle. Whereas before I use it as a one more thing to binge on, right? To escape, to numb. What do I do instead now?
If I know I’ve had a really stressful day, I’ve had a very tough interaction with a colleague, or I’ve had a really difficult intervention emotionally, I will really thrive to do something that I know is going to help me recover at a deep level. So as hard as it is, instead of watching my favorite show for
an hour and half, I may watch one episode followed by a meditation or a guided self-hypnosis recording, right? And I will do that intentionally to actually recover my nervous system to make sure that I’m in rest and digest and not fight or flight, right? So little things like that can be profoundly transformational. Wrapping up on this part, was there anything else that you like?
Learning not to trust yourself again, really, I think this is so fundamental. Learning not to trust yourself because you know yourself, know, self-awareness and knowing who you are and what are your patterns is actually the best way to change. Change begins and transformation starts when you know like what you don’t know, you can’t change. You mentioned previously that you were an insomniac. So what are your sleep techniques now to be a high performing
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like to be a high performing achiever and individual in a potentially corporate workspace while also getting a good seven to nine hours sleep. Yeah. So I’ll give you an example, a very concrete example, which happened to me this morning and last night. So I’ll tell you what I would have done before and I’ll tell you what I do now. So working with multiple time zones, I had a 6 a.m. coaching call and a very long day because I also knew that after that I had to make my way to the podcast studio.
to be present at 9.30 for a two hour recording followed by another two hour recording. So I’ll tell you what would have been my previous life. I would have crammed in last minute, stayed up until 2 a.m. last night, preparing for my coaching session, stressing the fuck out for all the recording, thinking that I was not gonna be good enough, thinking about all the things that I could have done differently. By the time I would have calmed myself down, probably with wine, I would have...
binge watch the series, I would have maybe thrown in a couple of snacks, maybe a bit of a sugary snack, something to help me soothe the feelings, the anxiety. And then I would have felt on edge. I would have taken a sleeping pill just to knock me out. And I would have woken up groggy, wove down three cups of espresso, then felt jittery and anxious. And I would think that’s how I do the best that I do.
pumped myself up thinking I can do this, I know hard, I can work through pain and would have shown up, of course. What I did instead, I had the most relaxing and beautiful and enjoyable dinner with my friend being fully present with the phone off because I didn’t want to be interrupted. I intentionally made sure that I was in bed before 10pm and resisted, resisted.
because I really wanted to go through the question that you sent me one more time and prepare. Well, I’m being honest. I genuinely haven’t told my husband, I’m going to do just a bit of prep when I got home. And he was like, mm-hmm. And I know what that means. And he was preparing his slip mask. that’s why choose your partner wisely. Because in that moment, he didn’t need to say anything. He just gave me that look and I knew exactly what that meant.
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Not that I’m expecting him to be my boundary, but it’s so nice that he’s part of my system. And that was my prompt. I put away the laptop. I didn’t even open it. I resisted the temptation. I made sure there was no work related device in the bedroom environment. I actually took a nice bath. I drank a cup of chamomile tea, which I would have thought a few years ago was as boring as boring can be. I thought my grandmother did that.
I put a couple of drops of lavender oil on my bedside table because it really relaxes me, it soothes me. And then I listened to an eight minute recording because I was really tired. And I took some magnesium because it really helps me to relax and it’s pretty holistic. Which magnesium? I take a magnesium that has different strain from bioptimizer.
really, really good one because I’m sensitive to different stuff. am of magnesium and I have a sensitive digestive system as well. So know your strains. Just that’s quite important. And then I actually did something that would have been unthinkable, but I woke up earlier than I would have stretched, didn’t rush, had a calm morning, did my preparation in a relaxed state, showed up to my 6 a.m. happy and relaxed.
and even strategically made sure that my commute this morning involved walking. So I intentionally didn’t use the most efficient taxi and got off sooner to have my walk-in so that I’ll be oxygenated and well rested and energized. So you see like a life before, life after, would I have showed up for my clients at 6 a.m.? Yes, but I’m not in the same state. I’m well now.
I would have been unwell before. Performance might not have been perceived greatly differently by clients, but one way was unsustainable. You’ve done every time for 10, 20, 30 years, and this way now is very sustainable. Just quickly though, I love doing this podcast. If it’s positively impacted you in some way and you would like to support us, please subscribe. By subscribing, it allows us to build a much bigger base of listeners, which results
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in better guests, better production and a better show overall. Alternatively, please take a look at the affiliate links of the products that I use and love in the comments below and consider purchasing using those links. They’ll give you a discount and they’ll also provide the podcast a small kickback. These are two very easy ways for you to support us as we continue to grow the podcast that we absolutely love doing. Thank you for your support and now back to the episode.
Great. That’s a good place to wrap up that part. I want to just dig into some general life philosophies before we end the podcast. So what’s a view that you have that would make most people either scratch their head or potentially get angry? That the way you’re working may not be the way you will survive your success. I know that would make people angry because a lot of the reason why we want to succeed is because we want to be financially stable. So I’m going to talk in
financial terms and ROI. By working the way you’re working, are you aware that you’re leaving money on the table?
In other words, are you working in a way where you are going to survive the success that you’ve created? You know, a lot of my help performers tell me quite often, especially if they have children, I would die for my kids. Of course you would as you become a parent, that’s something that’s quite natural to say. The question I love to ask them instead, and I would love to ask your listeners is, would you leave for your kids? Are you actually going to leave well and healthy?
to be around for as long as possible. And it’s funny how quick we are to say, we’ll die for our kids. And I know you would in a heartbeat out of love and protection. Let me flip it. And it’s okay if it makes you angry for a second, but will you live well for them? So that when you’re going to their graduation, you’re doing it well and stunning and vibrant and full of energy. And you can role model the way you want them to learn to live.
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to love and to work. That’s a really good point that I can think about a lot is...
a things come to mind that saying that a healthy man wants a thousand things, a sick man wants one. And you see it, you’ve got all these grand visions of your life and all the things you want to do. And the moment you get sick, you get a cold, a flu, all you want to do is get well. So, and the second part of this is, you know, I want to be 80 and I want to be that like guy who’s still running around, grandkids, like really, really
healthy and strong. And when I was 18, I asked myself, what can I do now that will set myself up later? And that the first thing I learned was to save money and invest. And now I take myself to 33. And the decisions I made at 18 to 26 have allowed me to move to the other side of the world and
opportunities that I wouldn’t otherwise if I just worked a normal job and spent all my money. And so now I’m thinking, okay, I’m 33. What are the decisions that I make now that will make 50 year old me say, thank you. So I’m thinking in that terms, and that’s maintaining high strength, that’s finding and building strong, deep relationships, that’s continuing to invest, but maybe investing into something with a bit more legacy in it.
focusing on stretching, eating well, keeping my brain sharp through, you know, working through right now I’m dealing with a mold and heavy metal toxicity issue. Dealing with that now, as opposed to putting it off, putting it off because I’m not unwell, but it’s existing because in 10 years time you may be unwell. So that’s a good way to frame it and I think it’s very similar to what you’re saying as well.
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Yes, I love what you said and it really is important to highlight that often we feel there is a choice and it’s two negatives. I have to choose to not perform, not be ambitious or right and actually really this is not true. And I know I’ve said it multiple times today, but the sustainable success equation is not being ambitious or be healthy. It’s be ambitious.
and maintain wealth through health. I think that was really telling that I said that. And I think one of the best sort of walks of life that we can learn that lesson from is actually elite professional athletes who continue to thrive, not the one who burn out and get injured because there are also many and often through over training.
I’m not immune from burnout and injuries, but it’s really interesting to notice that athletes who continue to thrive and sustain ongoing long life success are the athletes that actually maintain that level of recovery and health and wellbeing to fuel their competitive edge and their success and their performance. And I genuinely believe that this equation can be applied to any profession in the world, any profession.
Well, there’s a story around how much LeBron James sleeps. He sleeps 12 hours a night, nine hours a night, sorry, 12 hours a day, nine hours a night with two to three hour naps during the day. And he credits out a lot of the time for a lot of his successes in games. So if one of the best basketball players to ever play basketball is sleeping 12 hours a night and can still function as one of the best basketball players to have ever played the game, maybe there’s something in that. Absolutely.
It was tough one for folks working in a corporation, but here’s to hoping. Another thing I’ve been thinking about in this space is,
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So coming to New York, when I was in Australia, I set my own schedule. I worked for myself. I was one of those people that would wake up when I wake up and I’d spend two hours with this elaborate morning routine. And then I’d start, you know, I’d go to bed a little bit later. So I’d probably go to bed 12 one.
And I wouldn’t really get into any work until 11, 12. It’s just been this elaborate morning routine. Surfing. Meditating, yoga, know, just this whole thing. Aussie lifestyle. Yeah, well, I don’t know. It just happened to be able to be done. But my effective work output wasn’t that great. So when I came here, I thought to myself,
You know, I’m just going to get up and I’m going to get into it. And that’s just what I’m to do every single day. I started doing that for a few months and I started taking on more work that forced me to be more active, working with clients and people who were always on and just following that lead. And I thought to myself, you know what, I’m going to just do this for a little while, get set up, hustle, hustle, hustle, get set up and then I’ll be able to.
go back to the nice, calm morning routine with the yoga and the meditation and the nice breakfast and the relaxing and no phone for the first few hours, just enjoying that reading, all of that sort of stuff. That was kind of my mornings that I like. And then I realized pretty recently actually that if I’m taking on clients and work that expects the level of always on,
With the output.
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All I’m going and I continue to get more work like that. All I’m going to end up doing is continuing to be always on. So I came to this conclusion and I don’t know if it’s the right conclusion, but this is a conclusion I’ve got to it for the moment that I actually need to still prioritize the sleep and the workouts and the fact that someone, anyone who works with me probably isn’t going to get in touch with me for at least the first few hours of the day because my phone’s never on. And
I will prioritize the meditations and I will prioritize the yoga and I will go off the grid for a week once a year and you can’t get on to me. And they want to work with me in spite of that because I’ll never be able to go back to those frameworks if I’m working with people that expect the always on mentality. Can I add something? Sure. Perhaps them deciding to work with you is not in spite of that, but maybe even because of that.
is that they see and they thrive to role model. And I’ll tell you why I say that. I work with financiers on Wall Street who have the hardest, most demanding, busiest schedule. And when I tell them twice a year, I’m off to Bali to meditate or I’m off to Thailand to do yoga for 10 days. And during this period, I will not be available. I’ve never
had one turn around and say, I’m sucking you right here, right there. Never. They look at me with big eyes and they say, man, that’s one day what I hope I can say I do. They get tremendous amount of respect from it. They absolutely respect my boundaries and they find it inspiring. And I don’t think they would trust me more if I told them,
I work all the time 24 seven a day. Well, maybe not as a burnout prevention coach. Slightly off brand. You say that, but isn’t everybody’s brand to deliver to the highest level of service possible? Isn’t that the definition of what a brand does? Like serve your client at the highest level possible across any industry. I mean, it depends on what the brand is. Some brands. brand wants to deliver failed work or mediocre product?
Metwally — That One Time Podcast (01:12:46.03)
Well, mean, I’m not necessarily saying a mediocre product. I think that I understand the point you’re making, but for your specific case, the positioning of you as a person kind of is not surprising that you are going away for a 10 day yoga retreat, you know? Yeah, well, OK, so let’s switch industries and let’s take something which may not seem related, which is someone who would actually save lives, right?
I worked with a surgeon and he was on the brink of burnout, which is why he started to work with me. And he actually decided to set sail quite literally on a mini cruise and to just go and sail and be uncontactable to recharge his battery, recover from burnout. He’s not a health coach. He’s not a burnout advisor. He’s a surgeon. Do you know?
how much better he was as a surgeon when he got back from that trip that has nothing to do with doing surgery. Yeah, I can imagine. Right? So isn’t that true for about anyone? But do you have to hustle and earn your stripes before you can get away with doing something like that? That’s an excellent question. And I believe that you can earn your stride while doing something like that. Okay. If you integrated and I’m not suggesting that
any person who’s just launched their business go off to a meditation silent retreat for three months. There’s seasons. I like the idea of seasons. There’s seasons of hustle and then there’s seasons of rest. If you just launched and you’re a founder, like going to a meditation retreat for three months, it may not be on point or on bread unless you’re working. And brain app prevention. Exactly. Then give me a call. I’m hiring, but otherwise.
just think about pacing, pacing, pacing, pacing. What does it take? And maybe for you it’s not selling a boat or doing meditation in the morning, whatever it is, what is the one thing that is part of your system that makes you do the best you can for whomever it is you want to serve?
Metwally — That One Time Podcast (01:15:11.95)
What’s one of the biggest things over the last two years you’ve changed your mind on? Motherhood. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Tell me about that. How old are you? 37. 37, you’re pregnant? I am pregnant. First child? Yes. Yeah, well, first biological child. was a step-mom, but yes. Yeah. Okay, we’ll go on.
definitely does not feel like a burden anymore being a woman. It doesn’t come without fears of course, I’ll be honest, but I’m so happy that I can be a mom and continue to work, you know, and actually bring on a son, boy, to this life and help him.
build this understanding that he can be successful and brilliant and really good at what he does while staying well. If there is one lesson I would love, love, love to have the opportunity to teach my son that that will be it. And, you know, I’ve worked with so many fathers and sons and healed my own daughter, father trauma. The best ultimate way to continue on that journey is to now give that legacy and
It was not a done deal. Even my husband said, you were pretty hard work when it came to the topic of motherhood. It’s like, yeah, I know. But at least I was honest. Babies was not something I ever thought I would fantasize about earlier on in my life. And now it’s interesting that it’s become part of my profession. Most, if not all.
Suddenly most of the women specifically who come to see me for burnout, prevention or recovery are very, very often navigating infertility or struggle with their fertility, particularly in our age bracket, know, 35 plus to 45 when you haven’t had a biological child yet and you’re trying to conceive and you’re...
Metwally — That One Time Podcast (01:17:25.972)
in that season of your life where you’re trying to conceive while working really, really hard. It can be very challenging and it’s interesting to understand that when you burn out, you are mostly in fight or flight mode. And when you’re resting, you’re in your rest and digest and reproduce, really highlight and reproduce. I didn’t understand that, but...
Burning out and being in burnout mode is not conducive of being fertile and being able to conceive, right? It’s really taken a toll on a woman’s body when you’re working around the clock. And I’m certainly not saying it’s impossible and you can work really, really, really hard and conceive. But what I’ve learned is, you know, I’ve built a very successful business. I work a lot. I still work very hard.
still very ambitious and believe that I always will be. And I conceived and to me that’s... conceive naturally with IVF? I conceived naturally and I wouldn’t have if it wasn’t for the fact that I healed my work addiction and my burnout and there were some severe obstacles in the way. In fact, even my thyroid doctor told me that...
they didn’t think that I could conceive because of how badly my thyroid had been affected by my burnout. it’s where the cold plunges are not helpful either. You’ve got to be really careful with those. That’s the thing, right? When you’re at I pay, obsessed professional, you have a tendency to look for
and find it very attractive, especially when you get to know the world of biohacking, the hacks, they’re very, very attractive because they’re non-nuance, they’re extreme and we love extreme. Give me tough shit, I’ll sign up. So I love hard, I love extreme. So when I heard about cold baths, I was like, yeah, I’m gonna do 10 minutes. I became competitive about it.
Metwally — That One Time Podcast (01:19:43.798)
Is it the best tool to recover from your burnt out mindset? Not necessarily. Look, if you love it and you do it for one minute and a half to boost your immunity and to fast track your mental resiliency, why not? Or if you are a professional athlete and you’re doing it strategically to recover, to reduce swelling and all of that, why not? But if you’re doing
it like I did to prove a point that you can be tough and you can be competitive. Is this a healthy mindset? Right? So I’m really excited to embrace the new chapter and to continue to help all the women that I’m helping who are navigating burnout and navigating infertility and to really connect the dots between the two, which is often quite unspoken. think that there is really a lot of unspoken truth about
how hard we work and how difficult it can be to conceive. And a lot of it has to do with the mindset of even allowing for the possibility of making time for that baby. Your body knows. Yeah, your body knows. Your body does know. I did a podcast with a woman named Holly Sinclair. She’s a fertility coach. We spoke about all of this and progesterone and all that sort of It’s very fascinating.
On the cold plunge thing before we wrap up, I ended up doing that exact same thing. Started off with a couple of minutes and five minutes and ten minutes and the maximum I did was 22 minutes. And then after that I’m like, I’m done. I think we’re done here. And now I go in for a minute and I’m like, I’m good. I don’t need to prove a point. Right, right. Well, excellent. And I think honestly, if you’re doing it for a minute and you get some tangible benefits from it, good on you. Keep it up.
But if you’re doing it the way we were starting to do it, like the kind of competitive edge to be the one that does it the longest and the toughest at the greatest gym and biohacking place in Bali. Yeah, for sure. Been there, done that. Yeah. Well, maybe think about it. Right. Yeah. So is there anything you’re excited about at the moment that you want to let listeners in on? what am I excited about? I’m really excited about
Metwally — That One Time Podcast (01:22:11.276)
really embracing this new chapter of my life. Having this family and continuing to work, to me the ultimate demonstration of sustainable success is embracing all those different aspects of your life and not having to choose. So my intention is not to be a mom who doesn’t work because it’s a big piece of my identity and I really can’t wait and I’m most excited about.
embodying the value of creating a family and delivering outstanding work to continue to serve my clients at the highest level. That to me would be the most beautiful way to go full circle and to role model that which I want to see in the world. Great. And where can people find you if they’re interested? So the best way would be to sign up to my show as well. I have a podcast called The Charlotte and Giselle Show. So if you
Love a good podcast. Every Wednesday I talk about burnout, a different aspect of burnout. That would be the best way. And if you’re listening to this conversation and if you don’t know where you’re at and you’re wondering whether you’re just a bit stressed or really tired or if you are recovering from work addiction or burnout, I have a free test or assessment. It’s not a diagnosis, it’s an assessment and you can just hop on and do that. It can be very informative.
And my last question for you is, why do you think we’re here? What’s the meaning of life? To learn the lessons and to pass them on with a little bit of improvement along the way, just that one percent, I think would be good. If I can feel like I contributed positively to the world by one percent, I think my job’s done. That’s great.
And if you’ve enjoyed this episode, please go to YouTube, search that one time with Adam O’Reilly and click Subscribe. We’d love to see you soon. Cool. Thank you.
Metwally — That One Time Podcast (01:24:15.918)
Good job.
